Will practicing internal kung fu make me hyperventilate?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Undecided, Dec 22, 2011.

  1. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    I would want to know about the background of the student,things such as prior illness and other methods they might have practiced.The other thing to take into account is the length of time they have been practicing.One class of chi kung a week with no practice in between is going to have little effect,both good or bad,on anyone.Then you have to examine the method,does it involve packing and holding the breath.Standard chi kung methods are quite safe but problems start when people start doing these more extreme methods.We used to teach a 24 step method but omitted one of the steps as it was considered too risky for people who might have high blood pressure.Besides,the majority of students were pensioners and had no need for this step as it prepared the body for taking blows.

    The trouble is there is quite a lot of anecdotal "evidence" out there.Knowing a couple of high ranking Goju instructors I would say they are the last people to wrap students up in cotton wool.

    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  2. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    So, just want to check this...

    You avoided risking a health problem, where you have no evidence of it occurring, and this is supposed to be evidence that it occurs?

    That's kind of like saying that someone didn't leave the house today, so if they had they'd've been run over by a car.

    Quoted from the review as a criticism of the book:

    I stopped reading at that point, since it's obvious where it's going.

    That whole proving a negative thing again - no person with a genuine understanding of science would demand that a negative be proven. That just isn't how it works.
  3. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    You can see the exercise at 2.00 into this clip.What the clip dosen't show is the daoyin associated with this exercise.The breath is forced so deep that it feels that you are "breathing" into the groin.The hands are then pushed between the legs and more air is taken in.This is the packing phase.Repeat as required.

    When I was first shown this exercise I did a couple of rounds and felt dizzy.When I got home I measured my blood pressure and it was in the region of 120/75.After a round of this exercise it shot up to 200/120 and I felt like my head was about to explode.I think this was enough evidence to suggest this exercise might not be appropriate for pensioners.

    Back in the seventies we used to do some stupid warm up exercises in karate that these days would be considered dangerous to health.Chi kung is no different in that respect.The only difference is that no studies have been done on chi kung to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1avS2_eeRM"]Iron Shirt Chi Kung - YouTube[/ame]
  4. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Again, Putrid, virtually all of that is anecdotal evidence. The closest to an actual study done on Sanchin kata can be found here:


    In a nutshell, they compared practicing Sanchin kata with barbell back squats (the subjects performing 3x12-15 with 70% of their body weight). They found no physiological differences between the two and no harmful benefits when practicing Sanchin kata.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  5. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Neither's sprinting. I'm not disputing that it may be an intense exercise, just that there's anything metaphysical about it.
  6. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    I can't recall saying the exercise was metaphysical.Commonsense will tell you that we only have three things to work with,body,mind and breath.If there is anything else I must have missed it.In the exercise I mentioned the main components are body and breath with very little mind content.In chi kung terms it would be considered as crude as it has little in the way of "yi".Yi translates as intention.Compare this exercise with Yiquan's combat post.This exercise involves a combination of body and mind whilst the breath remains natural.This exercise is safe for anyone and we have had people in their late seventies/eighties practicing it without any problems.It does create a certain amount of tension but that tension depends on the mind content.A light mind content will result in light tension whilst an intense mind content will result in extreme levels of tension.So with mind content you can vary the exercise and still get benefits.With the former exercise its all or nothing as it uses extreme levels of packing to get results.Without the packing its going to do nothing.Neither of these exercises require people to "believe" in chi to get results even though the feelings associated with chi are likely to be felt by most people.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjszaxJuZTU"]Yiquan: Health Stance, Combat Stance, Test of Power - YouTube[/ame]
  7. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    So we agree that chi is not a mysterious form of energy then?
  8. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    Yes.Whatever the source of these manifestations they can't be anything other than an interaction of body,mind and breath.
  9. JRRodriguezIV

    JRRodriguezIV Valued Member

    Chi is not a mysterious form of energy. Chi means breath, breathing, or air, when used for martial arts that's all it is. The super power that most call chi-power is actually a combination of six factors, chi being only one of them.

    I don't read Chinese characters, but I believe that there is no chinese character that translates chi as a mysterious form of energy. Usually the translations are air, breathing, life force.

    OUR breathing is done as naturally as possible. From the day we are born to the day we die, we believe that there is no reason why we should alter our breathing. It is our belief, as taught to us, that if we alter our breathing we also shorten our lives. Point is, there is nothing in normal breathing, or altered breathing, that can give you so called chi-power. Otherwise, there should be many super charged masters today in this world, who can all kill with only one punch, just like Guo Yun Shen (Thus he was called 'The Divine Fist'). The way to have super power is a totally different practice, and is not found in altered breathing.

    I am not telling anyone to stop altered breathing, but I am telling everyone that we in our school (and probably other schools out there) do not even think of our breathing, as per Wang Xiangzhai's instructions. :cool:
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  10. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

  11. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    I think you need to clarify what the super power is.Do you mean fali?

    The Chinese use "chi" to describe the characteristics of many things.An oil painting can have a strong chi.This means that it is alive and evokes a strong feeling in the person looking at it.One Chinese master told me that Mike Tyson was a good example of strong chi.In other words he was violent,explosive and full of energy.A flower can have strong chi so can a well spiced meal.

    Guo was well known for being able to rip his shoes part whilst standing in san ti shi.This was done through expansion of the frame.However the stories of his imprisonment for killing someone are incorrect.

    I see the "super power" as no more than the interplay between relaxation and tension.If you take the amount of energy that is released when you do your maximum dead lift and then compress it so the release of energy is done in 1/100 of the time you have the "super power".This is how it was explained to me by the author of the article I linked.However it is far harder to achieve in reality than it is to talk about it on the net!
  12. JRRodriguezIV

    JRRodriguezIV Valued Member

    Thanks for teaching me more about Guo, the little bit I catch here and there helps complete the whole picture. Very good link too, thanks. :cool:

    Anyway, there are many ways to interpret practically any chinese character, and today the word chi has been used for so many things including your example about Tyson. The way we were taught is a bit more modern, my master wanted to use English words instead of Chinese ones because they're more practical, "You don't speak Chinese, so why should I use Chinese terms..." is what he would repeatedly say a lot.

    Fa Li is a bit different, but also the same. Yes it can be called Fali, but the way it is used or applied can be relative to whatever you or I were exposed to. I mean to say, the super power I am referring to is probably called Fali by many, but among the ones who's learned what we are learning, it is only one of the lessons/skills/stepping stones, to achieve our super power.

    Super power is not just what you said, but you are right if you look at it as connected to the interplay between relaxation and tension, if you are at that stage you are probably about 3 to 8 years away to super power, depending on the program you are following, and yourself. Relaxing and tensing took me a little over two years to master (very difficult indeed), it is the 2nd step of a several other steps process.

    I was 260 lbs when my master was 130 lbs, and he made me fly over 20 feet away before my feet landed back on the ground, that's why we call it super power. Learning that skill is not simple, but very achievable. There is no secret to it, all you need is sincere practice, allot time to develop yourself, and MOST IMPORTANTLY guidance. I'm on a personal goal of teaching it in 5 years, it took me 13, so far my students are on track at their 7th month. This skill cannot be learned from a book or over e-mail. There should be student-teacher contact once a week, or at the worst once a month, and of course a teacher who know this and is willing to teach you, is also important. :cool:
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2012
  13. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    So you're actually claiming you flew 20 feet in the air by a throw?

  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I took at that he meant he went 20 feet before coming to a stop (i.e off a push). This is not uncommon.

    If he did mean a 20 foot throw as phrased then that is a flat out fib
  15. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    I've honestly got to say I've never seen that. And I've been thrown and tossed around by some very skilled people in my day.
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Check at the 1:05 onward mark


    Notice that he is only off the floor briefly, but takes a while to regain balance.
  17. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    I can believe that. JRRodridguezIV claimed he flew over 20 feet before his feet hit the ground though.
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Yeah I know - hence I said if he meant that literally it is a blatant fib! :)

    I think he meant it as a colorful turn of phrase liek "I was seeing stars" rather than as a literal 20 feet
  19. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    If it's true, then I wish Riki-Oh was my instructor.

  20. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    It happens.My teacher suffered a similar thing when doing push hands with the Chinese guy in this clip.He is the last person to big anything up but he said he was thrown or pushed from one end of the courtyard to the other and split his head open on a window frame.After patching him up they asked him if he wanted another go.:D

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPioyETCBn0&feature=related"]Yi Quan - Enchainement de directs au sac par Cui Rui Bin - YouTube[/ame]

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