Will practicing internal kung fu make me hyperventilate?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Undecided, Dec 22, 2011.

  1. JRRodriguezIV

    JRRodriguezIV Valued Member

    I am simply stating an opinion and a warning that has factual basis from my personal experiences and learning, which you obviously don't accept. If you want, we can continue this discussion in PM so as not to disrupt this thread.

    Yes, thank you. :cool:
  2. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    That is not a factual basis. That'd be an anecdotal basis. Please learn the difference.

    The thread is regarding internal kung fu and hyperventilation, and whether it is a risk. We're quite on topic, so no need to divert to PM.
  3. JRRodriguezIV

    JRRodriguezIV Valued Member

    I have factual basis. Do you get off being insulting? :cool:

    Gotcha! :cool:
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2012
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    JRRodriguezIV you really need to cut to the chase. What you have posted so far is a very poor argument. Please post up your factual basis and back up your claims or give your fingers a rest from posting... because at the moment your simply flooding a thread with pointless posts.
  5. JRRodriguezIV

    JRRodriguezIV Valued Member

    I'm very glad you stepped in Slip, thanks. :cool:

    I can give basis, but since they're not available on-line, it's just stories through my experience. I do have basis but don't want to sound like I've made them up. Last week a Tai Chi master friend of mine and I talked about his friends and some of their students experiencing some health problems. In fact one practitioner is on his death bed now and they're expecting him to die soon. When the group discussed about what could have caused the affliction, they connected it with wrong breathing during zz practice which that person practiced. His problem is diagnosed medically, and is really connected to his martial breathing practices. Our discussion moved on to other IMA exercises that are supposed to be for health but seemed to be making people sick, and many reasons are connected to breathing. Then I recalled reading a problem with iron shirt practice that has connection to shortening life, but that's another topic.

    Our group does not practice controlled breathing, one reason being that it is unnatural and can be hazardous to our health. I'm just stating an opinion based on our studies, learning, teaching, and actual experiences. I've had two students who do controlled breathing and they complained about being weak and one even had other severe problems, and when I corrected their breathing they're ok now. Both of them did controlled breathing and because of this hyperventilated a lot especially when the going got tough.

    I don't think it's wrong to give a warning, and if it's not acceptable then so be it. But comments like: "And yet you profess to be an expert in the health risks of this thing that you don't do?" and "That is not a factual basis. That'd be an anecdotal basis. Please learn the difference." are really quite insulting, and there's really no need to do that, or am I wrong? That's why I wanted it in pm, not here in the thread. Anyway, apologies to all for this disruption. I hope it ends here. :cool:
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2012
  6. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    That's what makes them anecdotal rather than factual.

    So this was a group of medical experts who had full access to diagnosis equipment and determined that he is dying due to bad breathing during magic practice?

    Or could it possibly be that he's dying for some other reason, unconnected to the way he breathes during a martial arts class? People die for lots of reasons you know.

    So the medical diagnosis, by the doctors in the hospital, is 'lethal martial arts breathing practice'? That's what they've written on his chart? They've established a causal link and have evidence for this? Yes?

    If you could provide it please do so - a discovery like this would be earth-shattering in the medical community.

    Cooking food and speaking are at least as unnatural as consciously controlling your breathing.

    Yes - you are stating an opinion based on your own ideas. This is not a factual basis. When I made my sarcastic quip about learning the difference, there was a reason.

    Strange, given that most of the evidence and research around breathing suggests that those with good breath control are less likely to hyperventilate, and more likely to be able to breathe properly even during vigorous exercise.

    And wait - you corrected their breathing? So, you went from them doing consciously controlled breathing to doing consciously controlled breathing your way instead? Or did you just tell them not to think about breathing so much?

    It is not wrong to give a warning about a serious health risk. On the other hand giving a warning from a basis of ignorance can be dangerous - for example if I were to warn people off walking on the basis that it drains chi, I'd be not only putting their health at risk but displaying complete idiocy.

    You're wrong about them being insulting - sarcastic maybe, given that you evidently don't know the difference between factual and anecdotal and that you are warning people away from what many studies have shown to be a beneficial practice in sports science, but only insulting if you take offense at having such things pointed out.

    As to there being no need to do so, that's an argument I've had many times before with people preaching woo. They seem to think that their ideas are not harming anyone and so they should be left to believe what they want. I, on the other hand, believe that ignorance is a bad thing which should not be spread or preached, and should be fought against at every opportunity.

    It is relevant to the discussion.

    Apology accepted.
  7. JRRodriguezIV

    JRRodriguezIV Valued Member

    If anyone is interested to learn more about the person I mentioned, contact me through e-mail at my school's website XinyiMeditation.com, and I can set you up to see him and talk to his doctors about it. You'll either have to come to the Philippines, or ask someone you know living here to check him out for you. :cool:
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2012
  8. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    Last edited: Jan 16, 2012
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    This is not directed at anyone in particular, but is a trend I have noticed among certain elements with the IMA community. I consider it shameless if not actually repulsive to use someone's condition or death as a way to state "we do t3h r34l T41 Ch1!!"

    Anyone that purports death or illness could be avoided if only they had done the right style or used "x" method is a borderline asshat...and it aint much of a border
  10. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    I don't know if there have been any deaths but kundalini psychosis is a recognised symptom these days


    Breathing,and even holding the breath for long periods,is unlikely to do serious harm in younger people.In older people with high blood pressure it might cause problems.The real problems start when you hold your breath and start moving the mind around the body.For some reason it upsets the natural balance in the body,not balance as in falling over,but balance in terms of being in harmony with nature.

    Checking out JRRodriguezIV website shows he has a very impeccable lineage.it seems his teacher trained with the famous Dr Yu Pengsi who earned his medical degree in Germany.Yu was a direct student of Wang Xiangzhai.I have practiced Yiquan myself and the method uses natural breathing.In fact it is the most scientific of the internal arts and rejects the concept of qi.In some modern schools qi has found its way back into the syllabus but the results are usually the same.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2012
  11. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    That's the Prof. Yu who introduced his Empty Force in California back in the 80s. He certainly believed in ability to move w/out touching. Ch'i?

    I Ch'uan/Ta Cheng Ch'uan rejects concept of ch'i depending on when an individual studied w/Wang. Neither Wang,Shu-chin nor Kenichi Sawai,to name two among others who studied w/him, would be agreeable to such a sentiment. Just noting that neither idea has a blanket acceptance among the followers of the founder. I have publications by other students,too. Not something they put back in,something they got w/the package. Wang,Shu-chin was a huge believer primarily due to his training w/Wang,including being made to stand in Post for 4 hours a day.

    Not to go into it here,but perhaps the I Ch'uan folks could have a thread explaining why it's any more "scientific" than the other so-called IMAs.
  12. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    The late Shihan Bobby Lowe of Kyokushin performed Tensho kata three times a day, every day, for almost 60 years until his death. Tensho kata has a very specific breathing pattern and is similar in many respects to Sanchin kata, including both ibuki and nogare breathing. To say a controlled breathing exercise can kill your average healthy individual is nonsense.
  13. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    I lost a few brain cells just reading that.
  14. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Please elaborate.
  15. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    I meant that what's in bold was so stupid I may have just gotten dumber from reading it.
  16. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Sadly it seems there's some people in this thread that do believe that.
  17. embra

    embra Valued Member

    This is of some interest to me. Im interested to know more about these Kuma. I became aware some years ago that some Karateka trained in these kind of exercises, but usually when relatively advanced. So Im interested to hear more about how these exercises are used in Karate training - might help if you translate the Japanese to the nearest English possible.

    In my Aikido epoch (long time ago), I was exposed to various 'Misogi' breathing exercises (I believe originating from Shinto traditions). To this day, I still use these exercises for warming up - especially on a cold day - an excellent way of distributing oxygen to ones extremities. There are some stories of Ueshiba studying a lot of these Misogi exercises, but I haven't heard much about them in recent years. As soon as one talks about Misogi breathing on a Forum like this, there can be great rush of 'Ki' baggage-chat which is not terribly usefull.

    As manifest in this thread there is some hocus-pocus surrounding the QiGong and Neikung of CMA, internal and/or external - which detracts from its value. Yes it is important to practise in an intelligent way, but some of the language surrounding QiGong and Neikung and its negative effects along with all things 'Chi' is not particularly helpful and could be misleading.

    There is a lot to be gained from QiGong and Neikung, but intelligent practise via informed teaching is the key (for me.)
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

  19. embra

    embra Valued Member

    An interesting find Hannibal. How did you come by this?
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Well I have been into CACC history for quite some time and Farmer Burns is a legend in the wrestling circuit. I own the Matt Furey reprint too, but the Sandowplus version more closely mimics the original

    The entire course is actually phenomenally good

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