Will koryu teachers teach students with tattoos?

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by kuoshu, Mar 27, 2007.

  1. Senban

    Senban Banned Banned

    Okay, so let's say that you want to join the British Army but you have a beard. British Army regulations say "no beard". You can have a moustache but no beard. There are all kinds of reasons for this regulation ranging from personal discipline to cultural.

    You want to join the army? Here's the razor.

    Don't want to lose the beard? No problem, no hard feelings, see you around, close the door on the way out please.

    (I actually know of two people who had to face this decision btw and they both decided to shave).

    EDIT - As an interesting point, if you didn't want to lose the beard but still wanted to fight you could join the Royal Navy as they accept beards. Same as some koryu will accept tattoos and others won't.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2007
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Fair enough... you have every right to decide not to train there.
    No one is forcing you.
  3. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    Joining the army is different - its, at its base level, a job.
  4. saru1968

    saru1968 New Member

    But in terms of the royal navy and the army were then not men only up until recently?
  5. Dr NinjaBellydance

    Dr NinjaBellydance What is your pleasure sir

    If I have to strip naked and have my body examined for 'irregularities' and be judged on that, that's not an organisation I would ever want to be associated with. Imo it shows a fundamental lack of respect for my physical person, that no amount of knowledge or training can make up for.

    However, if there are people who are prepared to subject themselves to that for the sake of their art, that's up to them. Different strokes and all that.

    I guess I'm just not that dedicated.... :rolleyes:
  6. Senban

    Senban Banned Banned

    Sorry, the Army/Navy thing is just a kind of parallel example and not perfect.

    The Army is indeed in many respects a job but it's also something you do voluntarily (currently). No one forces you to join, it's entirely your call. You may express a desire to join, you may speak to some recruiting staff who will outline what is expected of you and then you make your decision.

    In some ways that is parallel to joining a koryu. Let's say I want to join xyz koryu. I might express a desire to a teacher of the art. He might explain some of the cultural expectations involved, some of the behavioral norms associated with that koryu. He might then decide to offer me a place depending upon whether I am prepared to accept those factors and I can choose to accept or not.

    Is this any different to the employers that will not consider you if you have tattoos/piercings or whatever, especially in visible places?

    The fact is that it's a culturally-inspired thing. We simply have to accept that not all cultures hold the same values as our own and we can't expect them to modify their position to suit our wants.
  7. Stevebjj

    Stevebjj Grappling Dummy

    Instead, you're trying to make them your puppet, unable to dictate their own terms. You are free to choose to get a tattoo and they are free to run their school as they see fit. Now, this would be a completely different discussion if they refused to teach you because you're a white guy (or any other race).
  8. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    No, I'm not forcing them to do anything ... Im saying they are wrong to judge me on my ink and using that as a premise to judge my character, my dedication, and my lifestyle.

    Again, I disagree - discrimination is discrimination no matter what way they try to hide it.
  9. Rock Ape

    Rock Ape Banned Banned

    You don't see many Mohican styled multi-coloured haired koryu budoka because, I suspect most soke would see such a presentation of personal choice as not in keeping with the TRADITION of the ryu-ha.

    You want to learn, you conform to the rules, policies and traditions of the ryu. If you can't comprehend that fine, I have no real issues with you or your opinions (which you are entitled to hold and express) however; Study of koryu requires the student to adopt many aspects and cultural trappings of the Japanese.

    The army analogy is spot on... after all what were koryu intended for and, who those skills used by and for what purpose. - Not hobbyists, that's for sure.
  10. Stevebjj

    Stevebjj Grappling Dummy

    You discriminate all the time. I guarantee it. Whenever you choose one thing over another, you're discriminating. The word has become so misunderstood, it's very sad.

    By trying to dictate who a person can teach or not teach, you are trying to force them to judge you based upon YOUR standard and not theirs. You're making a value judgement and are discriminating against them.

    I don't know about the UK, but in the USA we are free to discriminate on grounds other than specific protected catagories. It's called freedom of choice, and is stated in most places of business with a sign that reads, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." So, yes, there is a huge difference between discrimination on the grounds of tattoos and discrimination on the grounds of race, religion, gender, age, etc.
  11. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Jeezus! Noone does strip searches in koryu, who the hell ever gave such an idea?

    Please try not projecting distasteful images on people that aren't really there from the get-go.
  12. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Yes, this has been used on me as a teacher. The door was shown to that person. It wasn't for anything else than being a dishonest and arrogant person, not for any other reason. The person was disrespectful to other students, expected himself to be taught first before everyone else and had a chip on his shoulder the size of the rock of Gibraltar. He liked applying techniques (Particularly the painful ones) and never like receiving them. After repeated warnings telling him to wind his neck in, I politely told him to not come back.

    People get the hump with me when I tell them to take off piercings, but then I show them a bjj clip where someone is rolling with piercings and gets them accidentally ripped off. Blood everywhere. :eek: Needless to say, they take heed.

    I'm not against tattoos, I have loads of buddies who have them. However, I do have to uphold the values and rules of the ryuha I teach.
  13. Senban

    Senban Banned Banned

    Kogusoku said:-
    Mr Delaney, you wouldn't happen to have a link to that clip would you? It could come in handy in the future as I've had similar discussions (and indeed experiences) in the past.
  14. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    The clips were e-mailed to be as was another one where the guy was going fight a bjj tourney and didn't get to go to the toilet before the bout. There was a brown stain on his white zubon that spread rather rapidly when he was tackled into the guard. :eek: Or another one where a guy is wrestling collegiate freestyle, gets thrown with a cross-buttock (koshinage for us!) and sticks his arm out to stop himself from being thrown. SNAP :eek:

    I'll try to find them online and supply you with a link.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2007
  15. nickh

    nickh Valued Member

    WTF? :bang: :bang: :bang:

    Even if we leave aside any cultural or etiquette issues, how idiotic is it to keep piercings in when training? Especially when grappling.

    I can't believe you even had to tell them something as common-sense.
  16. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    The only thing I allow are close-fitting rings (wedding etc) but they'll have to come off once I get the guys doing HNIR kodachi or MJER kumitachi.
  17. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

    IMHO that gets to the core of the difference between the more modern aproach to MA's and the more traditional.

    Modern=Student, you pay for a service, instruction in a form of the Martial Arts. Most would never dream of cleaning the dojo after practice. Many will eat and drink while in uniform. Call an instructor by name outside of class and sometimes in class.

    Koryu=Disciple, You enter into a way of life. You are expected to conform to the standards of the Ryu. Clean the mats after each session. consider even the care of the uniform to be almost a sacred thing with proper ways to fold, carry, and maintain it. Would never dream of refering to there teacher as anything but Sensei even in casual conversation.

    These of course are only a fwe examples and even these will vary to degrees from ryu to ryu and school to school. I am not saying your mindset is wrong for you Sgt., just not right for a more conservative Koryu outlook on what a Student is and does within the Ryu.
  18. Dr NinjaBellydance

    Dr NinjaBellydance What is your pleasure sir


    If I have a tattoo on my **** how else is she going to 'inspect' me?
  19. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    *Spooky wonders if it's wise to ask for proof, being the net and all*

    :D :D :D
  20. nickh

    nickh Valued Member

    Not too sure about some of that. Aren't some koryu dojos actually less formal and regimented than modern budo dojos?

    I know of koryu teachers who clean the mats themselves. Hell, I've even seen some video footage of Otake-sensei (head teacher of Katori Shinto-ryu) sweeping up the leaves on the founder's grave himself.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2007

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