Wikipedia warning on Gyokko-ryu listing

Good point! There should be a common definition that everyone could agree upon and start from there.

Problem is the proponents don't want to give details because it is special information privy only to a select few unless you pay to go to the seminar which open to anyone regardless of rank, skill or organization.

 

The definition should come from the ryu-ha.

The problem as I see it is there's nobody here who's a member.

 

He didn't huh? And why would he say to his members if the Bujinkan still had it?

See the above underlined words for what he said!

I'll just keep posting it until you realize he said that Gyokko Ryu has ninpo and kenjutsu, among other things.

There is another post to from a Jinenkan member stating that Unsui Sensei learned the Gyokko Ryu kenjutsu but didn't receive licensing in it therefore he doesn't teach it.

Maybe others can post that like a broken record until the naysayers get it threw their thick heads :bang:

 

Are you deliberately trying to talk past Jwills? His question regarding the quoted statement essentially is: Has a currently existing such curriculum, or has had such in the past?

It's not so uncommon for parts of ryuha to survive with only parts of it still around in the present day. (Some MJER'ers, for example, seem to claim that Natsubara-ryu jujutsu and Itabashi-ryu bojutsu were once taught alongside and/or subsumed within their iaijutsu art, but good luck finding even bits and pieces of that today.)

I'm also curious about the "it also follows" part. Why and how does it follow?

And no, I don't want to hear any of the "Oh, every martial art came from sword/spear/etc. usage and thereby it must have a sword/spear/etc. art component that still exists today" nor the "Uke sometimes wields a sword, so it must have a currently extant sword art component" stuff. For the first, there'd still be the issue of completeness of transmission even if the claim is true; for the second, we need only examine Kodokan Judo, where uke might wield a sword and yet I doubt any judoka would claim that the training is designed to produce skilled swordsmen.

 

Whilst Charles Daniel was one of the first Americans to get a copy of the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki, circa 1984 from Yoshikawa Taro, he also got copies of the ryu-ha densho, supposedly directly from Hatsumi-sensei, and as Chris indicated, he conducted workshops in Australia on various ryu-ha in 1993. Charles was conducting ryu-ha workshops around the US from before that time too, I have numerous videos of his workshops from around that time.

With respect

 

How do you know that he is the one westerner who has not had his research reviewed by his peers? Which "peers" are you referring to?

Did he tell you this?


- Mark Spada

 

Yes, just like you earlier claimed I said you stated that Gyokko Ryu has a kenjutsu section.

I'll keep saying this until you make sense:

Is English your second language?

You don't seem to be understanding what those words mean.

 

Peers in this sense mean other Academic Researchers in his area of study. Not people who pay to go to seminars.

You mean the two times I met him?

How do you know he has? Your argument is weak.

 

No.

Avoiding answering a question by asking a question is weak.


- Mark Spada

 

Wasn't avoiding a question but asked you to clarify.

To answer your question. No,I didn't

Your turn:

Did Kacem tell you he has had his research about the history and authenticity of the Ryuha that comprise the Bujinkan reviewed/verified by other Academic researchers? Did they agree with his conclusions? Who?

 

I believe the esteemed Ninjutsu Historian Anthony (buy my book) Cummins reviewed his work.......

:evil:



Sorry guys couldn't resist.

 

I meant "interesting" that wikipedia can allow any idiot to add their 2cents worth without checking first.

the line : "However there is no historical evidence that this martial art ever existed." is clearly wrong and added by someone who is missing a few chairs from the kitchen set.

i wasn't agreeing with it

 

Two guesses as to who it was :yeleyes:

 

i noticed changes to the first paragraph of the bujinkan entry and also the last heading in takamatsu's entry

 

The way this post is going Antony is Cummins out on tops.......

Sorry I couldn't resist

 

Hi Gor,

While I can't comment on what your understanding of the Ryu-ha was and now is, I understand where you're coming from (as well as Benkyoka to a fair degree) as well. Realistically, though, my personal approach (once again, my personal kick, not dictated by my organisation or even my Chief Instructor) may have given similar or vastly different results to the ones you had earlier (when you thought you understood). Without being here with me to go through it in more detail, all I can say is that I have approached each individual Ryu-ha by themselves, not as part of an integrated whole, then trying to seperate them out. This may have given me a different perspective or understanding of them to those who only experience them as an integrated system. But really, conjecture as to my understanding is just that, if I say things that are off, that would indicate one thing, if I say things that match understanding, that would indicate something else, would it not?

As to the PS, as Dean Whittle confirmed, no I don't mean the Ten Chi Jin. For the record, we were using the TCJ before Charles got it, as Nagato Sensei presented a copy to Wayne Roy before he left Japan after his first trip (1981). I have a number of different copies of that document, as well as the Ryu-ha translations from Charles Daniel for Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu and Kukishinden Ryu amongst my notes, and I'm honestly not about to mix up something like that.

 

Wasn't avoiding a question but asked you to clarify.

To answer your question. No,I didn't

Your turn:

Did Kacem tell you he has had his research about the history and authenticity of the Ryuha that comprise the Bujinkan reviewed/verified by other Academic researchers? Did they agree with his conclusions? Who?

Still waiting, Mark! :evil:

 

I hope you brought a sleeping bag and something to read.



- Mark Spada

 

This is getting old

 

I'm obviously not the Menkyo Kaiden holder who wrote the article so I don't know and I would say to ask Unsui Sensei directly. To me it reads that he is saying it exists currently. It also matches up with what BigWill is saying and what the Jinenkan student previously said as well, so.....

Yes I know and thanks for your example, never heard that one before.

I only posted what Unsui Sensei wrote, so "don't shoot the messenger" seems to apply here whole heartedly.

Why not? Its a forum right?