Why sport fighting is not fighting

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Tom bayley, Sep 4, 2016.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yes, that is my experience, except that the Fight Quest episode was sort of edited to make Kajukenbo training look kind of like Fight Club. Otherwise, I liked the show.

    Eventually there is something on the fundamental level (I've called this short principles) that should be your go to off things like the flinch response. These movements have to work and they have to allow for appropriate follow-up. In some ways, buy time to assess the situation while providing relative safety for the moment.

    Things like first reaction to getting grabbed from behind or an arm around your neck, etc. What are the simple go to movements that are effective and allow for assessment of the situation?

    One of the exceptions is for active competition, you pretty much need to focus on winning so taking extra time for working out this short principles might be lower priority. Same if in a war zone and you basically want first response to be lethal, then these short principles might be lower priority.

    However, exceptions aside, short principles do not care if it is sport or non-sport, they apply all the time and thus they are an important part of self-protection that is ALWAYS.
     
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Another note on the grey area of consent is when people feel they have no choice but to engage in violence.

    Someone calls you out and your hormones don't allow you to back down. Someone hits your friend, your spouse, or insults your mother and your social conditioning doesn't allow you any other option but to get in a ruck. This starts to get into philosophical territory about the extent to which we have free will, but I feel anyone who has worked through this to any degree may tend to agree with me that free will is something you have to work for.

    It can be a complicated business. Some people are too hesitant, some people are too eager.
     
  3. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    That seems an odd legal choice. Not much difference morally speaking between a boxing match and two men going outside to know the tar out of each other.
     
  4. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    What they feel and what's allowed by the law are two very different things. That's often why we have them.

    Then you're a fool and likely going to reap a suitable reward.

    Which is an assault you'd be legally justified in responding to with the appropriate level of allowable force under your presiding legal system.

    Then you're a fool and likely going to reap a suitable reward.

    You're responsible for your own actions. On the other hand should you not believe that I'll be over in about 8 hours to take everything you own by force and you can defend me to the judge saying that free will isn't real and I had no choice because I felt I had to take all your things.

    Unless you've a diagnosed psychological condition you've really no call to claim that you're not fully capable of making sound decisions of your own accord.
     
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Call me cynical, but I suspect that tax and betting has something to do with it.

    I agree that it is a bit odd though. I can ask someone to bifurcate my penis with no repercussions, but if I ask someone to punch me in the face they could end up in court.

    There is a lot of uncodified common sense that goes on though. Unless someone were to file a civil lawsuit, I couldn't see minor injuries ending in legal action from sparring in a martial arts class.
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You're talking as if no-one has ever regretted actions they have made in the heat of the moment.

    I was still talking about social and psychological perspectives, rather than legal ones.

    I'd just like to take issue with this though:

    I don't know what the law in Canada is, but in the UK you are not allowed to attack people in vengeance. If someone punched your wife and then calmly walked away, you would not be preventing a crime by then attacking them. A jury may well understand and go easy on you, but strictly speaking you just committed an assault (though you could perform a citizen's arrest).
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  7. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I'm talking as if people are going to be tried and found guilty for doing stupid and illegal things. Sure I can pump someone full of certain drugs to make them do certain things but unless you've been drugged against your will or have a psychological disorder then it's your body, your hormones, your actions, your responsibility, your choice.

    It would be the same here. Which is why I said you could use what force is allowable under the legal system and given the specific circumstances such as preventing an assault, preventing a continuance of an assault, arrest for assault...
     
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Consent, duress, etc. are all important terms to understand, but in the end they come down to legal decisions. So knowing the law is important.

    I wasn't meaning to derail this thread. I wanted to expand the idea to that of self-protection is always, not just focused on particular situations.

    Sometimes fights are avoided simply by having a cool head and seemingly being in control of the situation. You do get this bad ass attitude from experience, but a point is that it comes down to the tenets of training. If you are tested in training and lose your cool quickly or panic, that is an ALWAYS thing. It can happen any time something goes wrong unexpectedly.

    If someone spends 99% of their time in an environment that enables losing cool quickly or panicking because there are too many surprises... 1% of training otherwise in self-defense isn't really going to do much to fix things.

    Folks into things live and breath this stuff. But hopefully with limits so that it does not become harmful (I add this as a disclaimer that there should always be limits that are respected). What I mean is that the culture has to change!!! Spend time with story telling of real world/life experiences related to self-protection. Don't limit such things to only class time. Story telling and play time are important.
     
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You still have the issues of mens rea and loss of control in UK law that could potentially come into play at trial.
     
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Not if you keep training it :)
     
  11. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Even if under your legal system that does come up as a valid concern I doubt anyone is going to buy that you had a warranted loss of control when you agreed to step outside and hash things out by using your digits to tenderize each other's faces.
     
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    No, not at all. I thought we were still talking about someone punching your spouse. It should be noted that loss of control is only relevant to reducing murder to manslaughter charges, though mens rea can come into play in most criminal charges, if relevant to the case.

    I think the trend for allowing certain amounts of consensual violence is going even further out of fashion here in the UK, as there is a campaign at the moment about one-punch kills (usually charged as manslaughter), which is being supported by some police forces.
     
  13. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    The thing about the combat sports, though, is that they've worked the whole endocrine system and related response systems into the training. Whether it's Judo, Jiujitsu, MMA, Savate, San Shou or whatever, the training systems for those things implies an extra set of training methods on top of just 'learning the ropes'. There's a spectrum there, one that starts with the ropes and end ups in someone else's grill. The controlled forms of fighting like combat sports provide good scientific insight into fighting in general, in my opinion. Everyone else is at best a gonzo Youtube video , or at worst an anecdote about fighting, and there is probably nothing people brag more about than fighting, with one exception I won't name here due to MAP policy. :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  14. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member


    Thanks very much for your posts, very informative, very interesting.

    I was not thinking of the legal aspect of violence when I used the term non-consensual but of the emotional, mental, hormonal response aspects.

    In my own head, for me, I would call boxing "consensual violence" because it is agreed between both party's. It has a clearly established context. Of coarse there is a massive hormonal, emotional response, and therefor I agree with others who have posted that boxing/kick boxing etc is a valuable simulation of non consensual violence in these regards, but the mental aspects are different.
     
  15. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Travess, I hope you don't mind but I have answered this question on the "great knife defense thread"

    I felt that it might derail this thread a little to answer it here and that it fitted well in a thread specifically about knife defenses.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  16. Unreal Combat

    Unreal Combat Valued Member

    Sport fighting certainly is not real fighting but practicing combat sports with the intent to compete full contact will certainly prepare you for a real fight alot more than practicing katas in a hall.
     
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Come at me bro.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I agree with both of these statements, but there's still a major missing link to fighting involving a high potential for serious bodily injury or death that is just missed in any kind of training. I always get really shaky whenever I get into a verbal confrontation with somebody that has the potential to escalate into a physical altercation. It doesn't feel at all like what competitive fighting or training felt like. I don't have a ton of competitive experience but the couple of inter-battalion ground fighting/wrestling competitions we would have in the military, or my one ammy boxing match, the nervousness was what you would feel during something like a public speech.

    As far as having experience in actual life/death situations, or potential ones, I don't know why but I don't really feel like I had an adrenal response at all. It could have been because before they would happen I already gave up all hope for life sitting on a ridge line baking in 130 degree weather for hours prior to it happening? I've been in a couple of situations outside of the military though, and I don't seem to have a major adrenal response in those either. The best way I can describe whatever I would feel would be "awareness" and clear thinking. This doesn't happen whenever I get into arguments with people (which is very seldom), so I think I have to know immediately it's that kind of situation.

    I'm not sure the response I had was a good one though. I almost got shot twice because of it, and one time I didn't move until after 3-4 rounds hit near me just because I didn't want to move (it's hard to get comfortable on a rocky hill ya' know). Either way, while I feel confident in my ability to defend myself physically and I attribute it to combative sport training, there's still a major aspect in the mental department that isn't covered naturally in either traditional or sport martial arts (the willingness to try to hurt/kill somebody). That alone brings up a lot of different stressors that unfortunately I don' think most people will ever experience without the experience of actual dangerous situations.
     
  19. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    but but but, there's rules in sports.

    <giovanni ducking for cover>
     
  20. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    These two statements contradict each other surely?
    Getting shaky in a verbal confrontation IS an adrenal response.
    I get a cold feeling down my back and shaky legs when the adrenalin flows.
    But I agree with you...the slow release/stress adrenalin of competing isn't the same, IMHO, as fast release "real" adrenalin when in a potentially violent situation.
    It all helps though I think. Facing your fears and competing certainly won't do you any harm when it comes to dealing with real violence.
     

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