Why some Yang TaiChi schools might look external

A Tai Chi expert will be able to tell if you correctly understood the principle from your movements. From there he can infer if your understanding or lack of, is due to the language factor.

The thing is, if one is born blind, how do I explain " colors" to him?

 

If you really think you can learn EMA just by following the movements you are sadly mistaken. The process might be different but there is just as much detail in EMA as IMA. To say you can learn it by video you are having a laugh is this one of your pulled out of the air statements. You have been asked before about your self and your knowledge this is probably why because you do say some really stupid things. One minute you come across as some one with some knowledge and then you shoot yourself down in flames.
As for speaking the language and translation my understanding was that alot of documents were deliberately vague and most things that have been written down have many different rewrites depending on who was in power at the time. So there are no definates in a lot of the writings myths and time have corrupted the original teachings. This comes from conversations with my teacher who lives in that part of the world.

 

Shui-linlin de Maomi...

Soggycat, you seem to be forgetting once again that Taiji is a MARTIAL ART, not a work of Chinese literature. Do you need to speak Chinese to delve into ****ou-ji/Honglou-meng? Yes. Do you need to speak Chinese to practice good Taiji? NO.

 

Why a Maths PHD student must also learn Russian, German, French etc

Anyone in USA /UK can study a Bachelor in Mathematics in English. But at PHD level, knowledge in a 2nd European language is MANDATORY.
Why ? Why ? Why ?

Because most of the traditional Math works of the last 200 years are written in German or Russian.
For a PHD student to master Math at a high level, he has to learn these language in oder to access these works.
Pure math genius alone is not enough !

So in reference to your argument, NZRIC , why can’t these Russian/ German works be translated since you maintain every principle is translatable ?
Why force a student to study Russian and German ?
So can you not see the parallel between TaiChi and Mandarin?
Well why don’t you ask ALL the Universities in the USA / UK.
Mebbe they are racist too ? ? !

Let’s just say, NZRIC, that mebbe you were not aware of this till now and I don’t hold it against you.


Requirements for the Ph.D. Degree


Harvard University
http://www.math.harvard.edu/graduate/
Mathematics is an international subject in which the principal languages are English, French, German, and Russian. Almost all important work is published in one of these four languages, although much Russian work is translated into English. Accordingly, every student is advised to acquire an ability to read mathematics in French, German, and Russian, as soon as possible, and is required to demonstrate it by passing a two-hour, written examination in each of two of these three languages. (Usually students are asked to translate about one page of mathematics into English with the help of a dictionary if needed. A student who thinks it is pertinent to his/her field of interest may substitute Italian for one of the languages mentioned above.) The first language requirement should be fulfilled by the end of the second year; the second language exam passed by the end of the third year.

University of Minnesota
http://www.math.umn.edu/grad/phdprogrequire.html
C. Reading proficiency in technical literature in two languages (French, German, Italian, Russian - or an approved substitute) is required. Proficiency in one language must be demonstrated prior to step B above.



PORTLAND STATE UNIVERSITY
http://www.mth.pdx.edu/programs/Mth_Ed_PHD_INFO.asp

Dissertation Research
•27 credit hours of Doctoral Dissertation
Prior to completing their program candidates in the Mathematics Education Ph.D. program will be expected to demonstrate competency in the following 8 areas: mathematics education, mathematics, supporting content areas, teaching, the use of technologies in teaching mathematics, proficiency in a second language, the application of mathematics education in an urban setting, and research in mathematics education.


University of Oregon
http://math.uoregon.edu/graduate/programs-phd.php

Language Requirement: The department expects PhD candidates to be able to read mathematical material in a second language selected from French, German, and Russian. The language requirement may be fulfilled by (1) passing a departmentally administered examination, or (2) satisfactorily completing a second-year college level language course. The language requirement should normally be completed after passing the preliminary examination and definitely before taking the oral examination.

 

No, one doesn't need to speak Chinese to practice Tai Chi.( Never said that before, again you are misquoting)

Yes, one needs to speak Chinese to attain the highest level in TaiChi.

Is that simple enough for you to comprehend?

 

Cattle.
EMA is External, consequently all major movements are externally visible. Hence a student can learn purely by observation and imitating movements accurately.


In days of old, External Martial Arts fighters were wary of practicising their style in public for fear an enemy/opponent might learn their secret technique and subsequently defeat them. What ? you didn't know....well you would have if you could speak Chinese and heard this from your Chinese master or read this in a Chinese text.

2ndly: Knowledge of Chinese is very helpful in facilitating the teaching/ learning process between the Chinese teacher and the student.
I made NO reference to reading old TaiChi text which are vague ( I agree with you on this)

 

Read this:

http://www.taichi-online.com/member...icles/Dan Docherty - Tai Chi Gladiator.public

 

Yet another...
SOGGY CLASSIC
pmsl

 

But how do you KNOW that the chinese (speaking) teacher is really good? Even if you are fluent in chinese you can still be sold snake oil. If he can use tricks to make sure that he stays better than you, then how do you tell?

Of course this goes for any language.

Now, I agree that you'd hope that the taiji that comes 'from the source' would be better than the nuveau-sung in the west, but it is not always the case. What we are trying to say my soggy friend is that although the standard of a chinese teacher CAN be higher than that of a western player, it is not AUTOMATIC.

It's not that I am disagreeing totally with your point, but more that it is too tight in its view. Knowledge of mandarin could help, but it doesn't mean that it will for certain.

But anyway, what has this got to do with why some Yang styles might look external?

 

Gerard thats a good read till he starts to talk out of his rear and say how bad every body else is. Up to that point i was starting to like the man but then to claim most other styles are doing it wrong is the typical MA who thinks he is god syndrome. Inparticular having a bash at CMC. I liked what he said to start with but he certainly lost me as he went on.

Soggycat what planet are you on i am laughing so much i am crying over my PC it is so obvious that you have never done EMA and if you have i would go and ask for your money back. I suggest you go and train with a teacher who knows his stuff just watching will not be enough i can promise you :bang:

As for Tai Chi documents being vague what i was trying to explain was that just because you know the language do not assume all you are reading is correct and the gospel. Even if you can speak the language do you think every one you talk to is telling you everything. aaaaaaaahhhhhhh if life was only that simple.

These things i can say from my years in martial arts i do not claim to be that good but people know what i have done by reading my profile. Maybe you should give us some background to yourself and backup some of your statements.

 

Soggy, your analogies may work for you up to a point.
But the reality is taiji is expressive art - the art here happens to be fighting.
So comparing it to maths is pointless. The part of the brain that is creative works different to the other hepisphere that is logical.

Taiji is not logical, its creative - you don't teach an artist to paint - some things are guided to.. If you have a good teacher, communication is key - let be remind you that verbal communication (words) only counts for around 7-8%. Vocal tone is 3-4 times that.etc physical - 55%

Taiji learning is very sensory. If you are an open, sensory person you can learn regardless of language. You may have a point, but its a teeny tiny one

If you and your guide have a connection and can communicate - words just bolster, they don't really teach..

There are no secrets!(ok maybe some ) anything that can/has been communicated about taiji practice is pretty much out there and been translated and can be understood to some degree. The finer points that are hard to put in words and can really only be understood are ambiguous in any language. Hence the need for appropriate teaching methods.. Language is very limited/limiting in this area anyway - perhaps our western language system moreso, however I do feel you are very much putting to much emphasis on this point of contention.

There are probably some secrets that have been made up too
Sometimes I think Taiji/IMA is overcomplicated in some quarters, at the end of the day it is natural fighting method that in use should not require thought at all. If you practice correct within the principles, the right things happen naturally IMHO. Good teachers are important - language in this case not such a big hurdle to overcome . Which would be more in line with analogies like football, boxing, art. Skills that are intuitive.

But hey I could be just a dumb Westerner who hasn't met some one who's reached the 'highest levels'
hmm I wonder if Maradona or Pele needed to be fluent in English.
What language does creative physical art need to speak anyhow?

 

"hmm I wonder if Maradona or Pele needed to be fluent in English.
"

Did you know it was actually the Scots who introduced football to Argentina? There are quite a few places around the world who have the scots to thank for this.

OK, its not relevant to the current argument, but I thought I'd point it out.

 

Let's face it VR

No one on the planet can understand the Scots!

I had a mate who was down from glasgow working in London (now in Spain)
And half of the time I was just nodding along and winging it.

Details are important, but I think the way taijiquan is practiced, the details will arise if you have a good teacher. If you are told them, before they arise in you, you won't get them any way. What happens is that you may just recognise them quicker and maybe facilitate a better learning curve.

As with anything in life - a lot is down to individuals, and something that is overlooked a bit - natural abilty. Both to guide/communicate and to do. Not everyone can be an Ali or a Cus D'amato (to use western references). Not everyone is a natural fighter or teacher..and there's nothing wrong with that.

One of the problems, with us westerners and Ma's especially with arts like these. A typical guy say 25 y/o takes up taiji, he may have average abilities in fighting. Fighting ability can be raised certainly and substantially. The thing is for the most part in the East many masters/teachers/students begin this training from a young age - it is much more a way of life.
Now going back to our Westerner. Now, he asks himself - how do I bridge this obvious skill gap? - oh, I must train different form - you know that secret deadly form only xyz lineage knows and those super special training exercise and this knowledge and that - basically they get conned into thinking they can replace hard work in training with the 'right' specialist knowlede.

When really there is only 1 secret.
- practice & train Hard! in whatever you do. Then surely you wil have the hong gong fu

It also helps if you find the right teacher(s) for what it is you are after, if you ain't gettin it, go look for it.

 

Whit are ye sayin? Ye cannae sae thing like that and no' expect a guid beatin!

why's he in spain noo? tae get awa' fae the inglish!

But what guarantee is there that our oriental friend has stuck to one art and not diluted himself. Or that he has trained diligently for many decades, or that he has any real skill? He may have started at a young age, but did he train hard? Did he just fudge along until a couple of years ago when he realised he could make a bit of money teaching in the side? Then re-invented his history?

What I am saying is that nationality, or linguistic ability is not an automatic guarantee of quality.

I agree that style hopping is not the way. Choose your path and perservere. More often than not the fault is in you and not the style. As soon as you start looking for short-cuts you are going backwards. There is no easy path, it can't be shown, it must be learned. It must be earned.

To gain 'mastery'*, there may be more opportunity in the east, but it can and does still happen in the west.

* mastery: ok, not mastery but a respectable level of skill.

 

Most of my comments were aimed at some of the issues raised in the thread.
Many Martial Artist train in a few other Arts over the years - that can be a very productive process too, but like you say not in a 'hopping' manner.

To use another analogy though, whilst other countries can no doubt produce as good or better footballers than the UK. It is fairly well recognised that the depth and passion for football is reflected at grass roots level the same may be said for a country like Brazil etc. But that is certainly not the case in say Australia or USA were they have other sports to compete with popularity wise.

My only point being somewhere like the UK is of course well capable of churning out top notch Ma's in relative small numbers, but overall there is more likely to be generally quality people in numbers training in Asia due in simple terms to popularity. Just as the US churns out quality in numbers of basketball/baseball and American footballers. Its a cultural thing.

Totally agree with you buddy!

 

Ummmm...

Don't try to imply that I'm stupid as my Mandarin is almost certainly better than yours. Also, what is "the highest level" in Taiji? There is none. Its potential is limitless. Also, given the content of the majority of your posts, I seriously doubt that your Taiji is so sublime that your language proficiency or that of your teachers has become a major factor in allowing you to reach the pinnacle of Taiji mastery. First rethink your ideas about the horse stance and then start quibbling about the "highest level."

 

You'd have to be able to spell the English word "colours" first I guess.... lol
(PS this is irony btw soggy, please disprove the US stereotype by getting the joke.... ) :Angel:

 

And that, my friends, is why some Yang styles look external

 

Rofl

:love: :love: :love:
I'm so glad we cleared that up.

 

Wait!!! I missed it!! :bang: :bang:

Can we start again please? :Angel: