Why some Yang TaiChi schools might look external

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by soggycat, Jun 15, 2005.

  1. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge


    This is wrong... you dont need to know a language to sing the song... I know one or two opera singers and they dont know any other language other than english and they get along fine... you do not need to be fluent in a language to sing a song... hell I even used to sing in Latin at school... am I fluent in Latin... hell no...
     
  2. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    Sorry soggy,

    your operatic example is bunkum. There were some people at my school (many many many years ago) who were in a regional choir singing Carmina Burana. That's written in Latin and Old High German or something. They certainly did not have to gain a good level of understanding in those languages in order to be able to sing them.

    Also learning latin would not make them sing better either. It'd just let them understand the words (which they probably know anyway in a generalised translated way as opposed to word for word.)

    I think that opinion is against you on the language and tai chi front as well.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it's wrong! :D:D:D
     
  3. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Tai chi is a form of expression (add the chuan for martial expression). The source is Chinese but the tools (i.e. the human body) are universal. While it may take "westerners" (!) longer to grasp the cultural and symbolic meanings, after a time the repetitive learning of tai chi stops and the art of expression of the meaning of tai chi starts.

    Tai chi is not similar to opera because it doesn't "speak" in chinese. It "speaks" in the principles inherent in the forms, which don't depend on which language you know. There is no principle that cannot be translated from chinese to english if you understand a bit of cultural/political/philosophical background data.
     
  4. gerard

    gerard Valued Member


    Nzric, I agree with the first part of your statement 100%. However, most Westerners (not all) fail to grasp the importance of developing qi and observing Yin & Yang in their training (and other aspects of life) as well as including sitting meditative practice. That explains why the Chinese will always have a superior understanding of IMA than Westerners.

    I must say here that today Chinese (influenced by global changed) have adopted Western lifestyles, and therefore their IMA and allied practices have lost quality in terms of traditional standards.

    Very sad, but as the historic Buddha said:

    NOTHING IS LIFE IS PERMANENT.

    :)


    P.S.:I support Soggycat in his statements.
     
  5. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    I second that Nzric :D
    This language thing really sucks imo. Taiji is about feelings and awareness - neither of which has much to do with verbal communication imo
    If I use peng jin or ward off energy on you, will you be able to tell whether I did it in Chinese or English - or will you just fall backwards as a matter of first priority? lol :D
    Soggy your opinions and views are fine for yourself (no matter how misguided some of them seem to be to me ;) ) - I think it's the proclamatory way you put them across that gets us all going lol
    Don't change though - I look forward to your posts :)
    :Angel:
     
  6. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    OMG pass out the brown shirts - we've got a movement! lol :D :rolleyes: Shame on you both - I am so glad the Chinese teachers and practitioners I have met do not hold those kind of views. Sitting meditation?? (which I practice incidentally) This has little or no connection to IMA skill. Standing meditation maybe... Your religious mania is clouding your objectivity Gerard - meditate more, rant less lol :eek:
     
  7. gerard

    gerard Valued Member



    Hey TB, agree with you.

    But I must say here that Chronicles of Dao and the story it depicts was written long after ZSFeng's era. This monk is an immortal same as Da-Mo (Buddhist though), Lu Dong Bin, Zhang Guo Lao, and the other immortals. The guys you are talking about are lesser Daoists who I don't believe have achieved Shen level.

    BTW I am not 100% Daoist as I follow Buddhist practices too. Call me Neo-Daoist. I have deep respect for the Dragon Gate Daoists (which follow both Daoist and Buddhist practices).

    Cheers :)
     
  8. gerard

    gerard Valued Member

    This is funny TB.

    Maybe you should sit down and meditate a bit more. Once you can freely move qi with your mind and project it externally even Taiji is a children's game.

    Heard of the Magus of Java?

    I am not religious.

    :)
     
  9. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Gerard
    Yup I've heard of him - like all guru's he has an agenda imo - I follow only Tao and listen only to the Buddha within me. My life is mine. (there is a big difference between a 'guru' and a 'teacher' imo btw)
    I agree about the qi and Taiji - can do all of that - but it is standing that has an effect on IMA ability practically ime qi development on its own is not enough and sitting does not strengthen the body in the right way to produce adequate jin (for my purposes anyway) - doing both is helpful imo :D
    You come across as religious - perhaps it has a different terminological meaning to the two of us.... :D
    :Angel:
     
  10. gerard

    gerard Valued Member

    Yes why should I deny it. I guess I can be very stubborn at times. The reason is that I don't get involved in social ceremonies, that's why I reject the traditional view of religion.

    I am religious and that's the reason I follow Eastern spiritual practices (and others, i.e. native Shamanism from other areas). I am not interested in street fights, self-defence an all that jazz. These powers are just residual. Don't focus on the Siddhis I guess. No good.

    I could beat ten men by just sending them qi to their hearts. Uuuh! Big boy, but at the end what counts is the amount of good karma you cultivate in this life.

    Have a nice day,

    :)
     
  11. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    TB, just threaten him with a shotgun. That usually shuts him up.
     
  12. gerard

    gerard Valued Member


    Look who is here. I didn't know that a low-key bully would show any interested in higher martial arts.

    Read this:

    http://www.focusonyourchild.com/entertain/art1/A0000623.html

    I am gonna trash your little bike very soon VRRRRMMM! :woo:

    [​IMG]


    :D
     
  13. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Bwahahahaaaaaaaaaaa :D Way to be easily provoked :D
    Actualy, make that wierd, impervious to reason, boring, self-absorbed AND easily provoked :D
     
  14. gerard

    gerard Valued Member

    ;)
     
  15. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

  16. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Hmm this discussion's getting far too sophisticated for me.... :rolleyes:
    (Don't ever test that "ten men... qi into their hearts" theory btw I'd miss our chats Gerard)
    :Angel:
     
  17. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    gerard, I think you missed the memo that this is a martial arts forum.
     
  18. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    1. Firstly you had to correctly memorize Latin words, Latin pronunciation
    2. Secondly you had to correctly recite it back

    That's mastery to some level even if you didn't completely understand everything

    3.Thirdly just because you could sing in Latin doesn't mean you could sing well.
    A good Opera singer , one that has received public acclaim is quite different from an amateur who sings in ths shower..

    You are splitting hairs
     
  19. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    Again you missed the point.
    I didnt say you need to know Italian to sing opera.
    I indicate that to be a GREAT opera singer, to attain the highest level , knowledge of the original language is critical.
    :woo:

    It is no surprise that the majority of opera stars today are born Italian ( . ie. they know how to speak Italian) eg. Andreas Bocelli, Pavarotti
    Italians are disproportionately represented among the elite opera artistes.
    I don't believe Italians are genetically gifted over other races in Opera.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2005
  20. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    I agree in principle with almost everything you said.
    As far as External Arts like Shaolin and Karate are concerned, knowledge of Chinese or Japanese is is not critical in deciding if a student can master the art to the highest level. Why? Because any EMA can be learnt by imitating the movements, timing and force of the teacher. Infact it is entirely possible to learn EMA via a video.

    Not so fo IMA. Why?
    Because of " intangibles" that are not visually demonstratable or obvious.
    Like the state of muscular tension /relaxation, the subtle shifting of weight from one foot to the other,springlike movements as opposed to plain movements, driving the body movement from the Dantien, emptying the mind in the midst of battle .... and others....even my description here is not completely translated here.

    Additionally I disapree that everything is translatable in any language.
    The rough mean maybe translated but not the subtle , the nuances.
    I guess if you only know one language , it's understandable why you cannot appreciate this point. Because some of the words just dont exist in the other language. Lastly, you forget that Westerners who learn from Chinese masters who speak broken English also suffer from " incorrect explanations" on top of "Loss-in-translation" Haven't you ever had the experience where your Chinese teacher occassionally relied on a senior Chinese/English speaking student to translate something important , which hewas unable to do so himself?

    As an example, last week I bought a American Wushu training DVD at HMV.
    The teacher is Caucasian and spoke stilted Mandarin.
    To add authority to his lesson, he tried to quote the first line from the Dao The Ching:

    " Dao Ker Dao, Fei Chang Dao"
    which he translated to:
    The Dao that can be FOLLOWED is not the real Dao.

    I wasn't sure if I should laugh or cry !
    :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
    Respectable Dao Te Ching translations would read as :
    The Dao that can be NAMED is not the real Dao.
    The Dao that can be DESCRIBED is not the real Dao.
    The Dao that can be SPOKEN OF is not the real Dao.

    That instructor is implying by his MIStranslation that one cannot really follow the Dao. I wonder what the millions of Daoist/ Taoist are doing then ?

    I'm personally annoyed at him because now we have 1000s of novices who just learnt the wrong thing. Next ,some might come to this forum and tell me my translation is wrong because their teacher told them other wise.
    How many of the people here are just that !
    :Angel:

    If you are interested in this DVD I can provide the title ...tomorrow.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2005

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