Ever wonder why people who don't even do traditional Chinese kung-fu seem to dominate the Kung-Fu department and bash everything except maybe San Shou (ie Chinese kickboxing)? Wing Chun takes the most flack, probably just because it's the best known. Possibly also because it seems the most unorthodox by modern boxing/muay thai/MMA standards. But most other Southern Chinese "shortbridge" systems share similar methods. So I'm thinking WC catches more flack than the other systems mainly for being more visible. What I'm really hearing is that "all old-fashioned systems that have traditional forms and drills and don't spar like we do are really stupid". OK, each to their own. But why do these guys have to keep coming into the kung-fu department, tearing down what others do, and evangelizing for MMA. Do they do this to the traditional Karate, Aikido, and Internal Chinese Arts people too? Sometimes it almost seems like trolling to me. But then, I'm all about civil discourse (to use a current buzz-word) and letting each do their own thing. Any thoughts?
There is plenty of evidence for trad karates effectiveness in the form of knockdown tournaments and styles such as enshin, kyokushin and kudo/daido juku. Semi contact or non sparring karate not so much. I think most Aikido is crap and have said so. Most 'Internal' arts from china are fine by me... because the real deal arts all grapple (free step push hands etc) and compete in full contact striking (sanda/sanshou) so again they have demonstrably effective training which yeilds tangible/visible results. I have a backgroun din Hung Gar and have trained wing chun, not that I wouldn't be entilied to my opinion if I hadn't though. This is a martial arts forum where peopl eare going to discuss martial arts for better or worse. Most sections on here have quite low levels of traffic... I just post on whichever threads are up and running... whatever sections they may be in.
Hey, don't take my griping personally, Killa. I wouldn't hang out here If I din't like a lively discussion. BTW check out the clip below. I like what old Victor is trying to do with WT. In fact he's broken off from the EWTO and is trying to take the art inot a more practical direction. Whether or not any of his students find a way to apply this stuff in the cage remains to be seen. You may be skeptical. I'm hopeful. Either way, I've always liked Carmina Burana by Carl Orf. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM676yGD_5w&feature=related"]YouTube - Wing Tsun, Karate, Kung Fu - victor_gutierrez[/ame]
I'd bash ANYONE who practised punching with no hip or shoulder momentum and their hands down around their mid chest...
Well, who could blame you. Maybe that's why Victor moved away from that classical starting position. In the older clips I've seen, he still starts that way. You see it less in the later stuff, and not at all since he broke off on his own with what he's calling "Wing Revolution". Here's a clip fom somewhat earlier showing a bit of friendly chi-sau. It's not all-out sparring, but it's useful as it does show how he holds his hands. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbwXy_4Qm_o&feature=related"]YouTube - Wing Tsun-Gran Sifu Victor Gutierrez con el maestro Claudio[/ame]
When I did traditional kung fu (for about five years) I posted here alot and never felt trolled or that people were going out of their way to argue with me. Sure I had some 'robust' discussions with people regarding forms (I think they have their place and can be beneficial, others don't) and other issues. But then if we all thought the same the world would be a boring place! The simple fact of the matter is that most kung fu in this country isn't very good. Its taught by people who a) couldn't fight their way out of a pre-dampened paper bag, b) posses a very snobbish attitude towards other forms of fighting and c) massively overestimate their own completely unproven fighting abilities. WC probably catches alot of flak because its teachers tend to particularly embody those three traits. Not to say there aren't good wing chun teachers, Kevin Chan, Alan Orr, Alan Gibson etc. But they are the minority and WC as an art seems simply to have developed along lines that bring it far way from real fighting for the most part. End of the day, as Bruce said, unless somewhere you get beings with a different number of arms and legs all forms of fighting will at their core have similarities. So I think its fair game to comment, with respect obviously, on any sub forum on this site. Look on the bright side Geezer, at least you don't train in ninjitsu
Well that's an old one... I have seen it before, but a few years back now. essentially I'm not very impressed. It's really nothing new. It seems to me to be the same old complient demo with added overkill. I've done a bit of digging and it also seems that victor gutierrez has produced some quite frankly shocking anti-grapple videos, which I've watched. They really are truely terrible. Even this clip is not hugely impressive. I understand that iut's a friendly spar but the guy is clearly a student or less experienced chunner from another school/org who is showing so much respect he'd may as well just roll over an dhave his tummy tickled. He isn't sparring, he is playing the fall guy. He's throwing without any set up, he's throwing to miss, he's throwing without any commitment or intent (and thus providing an unrealistic energy to work with) and he's freezing after hes done so. It's learned subordination or it's awe.. either way the result is the same. If I saw a clip of the sifu gloving up with someone who can actually box/kickbox and going at it even just 50-60% intensity in a genuine spar using wing chun and making it work and I'd give him some props for that for sure. Until then my feelings are the same. Same old story...complience and woeful anti grappling, and from what I hear, huge amounts of cross training in other striking arts such as muay thai and some judo (for victor personally at the very least).
I disagree with you, I think it's Chinese martial artists like myself who are legitimately concerned for the welfare of the Chinese styles, from a historical and nationalistic perspective who are the most openly critical of our own mess, our own crappy state of affairs. Outsiders may bash us but in the end they don't really care, they are happily doing their own MMA, Boxing, Muay Thai, or other full-contact, practical martial arts. The Chinese stylist who is willing to accept the brutal honestly of the dire strait that CMA is currently experiencing is the person that ACTUALLY CARES; thus he is the hardest on himself, and others who come from similar roots. I am proud of Chinese martial arts vast histories and development, and their beauty as well, which is why I'll be the first one to call out bull crap when I see it. Because training your students in 50 forms is NOT BEAUTIFUL, NOT ELEGANT. It is ugly and only leads to a martial art's slow and suffocating death. You can say oh that's a barbaric way to look at it because you have to give the art credit for it's "artistic" value as well, but I disagree. You DO NOT have to give a "martial" art any credit for any "artistic" value because historically, these systems were made for when the shiz hit the fan, HARD. If you are demeaning the original intent of these styles, then YOU are the real person who is "desecrating" the value of these systems. That is, unless the style was created as a philosophy of non-fighting or some crap, but Chinese styles ARE NOT. Stop acting like Chinese martial arts share some similar philosophy to Aikido for crying out loud, you are only demeaning both of their histories.
Never said that. Just asked if people bashed Aikido too, since IMHO it's pretty hard to apply in the real world, and seemed a more likely target than WC. I've met WC guys who were really tough. I really don't know about Aikido. Other than that, you make some really interesting points about the deterioration of once very effective fighting arts. And it's not just the Chinese arts that have suffered from this problem. A lot of the Filipino arts are losing their realism. I mention that because I also practice Eskrima. And I don't think even rough sparring like MMA or, in the case of FMA, hard sparring groups like Dog-Bros. and Black Eagle groups can completely stop the decay. The FMA were designed as killing arts. Somebody has to take it to that level to keep it real. Not me. I'm not advocating for bringing back the gladiators, or warfare with axes and swords where you hack people apart. But that's about what it would take to keep blade arts alive. That's what the last generation of FMA masters did during WWII. Today you often see...er... baton twirling??? Anyway, thanks, ...good post.
Geezer, when I say "you" I wasn't referring to you specifically. But the people who are exactly what I described, probably know what I'm talking about, with their "principled" ideologies and fantasies concerning Chinese martial arts, more as philosophies or art forms than combat sciences.
Kung Fu was my first martial art. Even though I've moved beyond traditional martial arts training I still consider Chinese arts my foundation. Having said that I must say that most traditional Kung Fu schools suck. Way too much time is spent on repeating futile movements that would never work on the streets. While most of my fellow students wanted to learn the next flashy move of the Tiger/Crane form I was more interested in practical application. Lucky for me I've had good instructors who realized I didnt care too much about learning how to do the Butterfly Kick and so they taught me how to discard the useless stuff and find what works for me but thats the exception not the rule. Way too many schools cater to the Shaolin wannabe and not the guy who actually wants to learn something real.
My experience with tiger/crane was very similar. There was a continual disparity between what we did in the forms/sets and drilled and what we trained for sanda/sanshou. The form was full of antiquated and hysterically bs techniques which we drilled compliently... for sanda we kickboxed using the puglistic techniques of the sets and wrestled... Guess which I prefered
Killa, I just wanted to go back to what you posted about the Victor Gutierrez clips. Now wait... cross training... isn't that a good thing?
I found that confusing also but what I think he meant was those things (cross training, etc.) were needed. Not that Victor was doing them. Victor's anti-grapple videos are classics of two people who know nothing about grappling rolling on the floor thinking they are grappling. A seasoned white belt in bjj would have no problems with either of them.
BTW, I trained wing chun in two different lineages. Switched to BJJ not because I hated the chun but because I like grappling better. But, if you claim to train fighters then you school better fight. There are plenty of SanDa competitions out there and if there aren't in your area get together with some other schools and start some. Doesn't mean everyone in the school has to compete but you need some people competing.
What I mean is it's another case of the extensive patching up of wing chun through the use of other systems... without the explicit recongnition that this is born from necessity.
Correct me if I am wrong but were not all Martial Arts developed for combat? Even for the Monks, initially training was used for physical exercise but also, to defend the temples from bandits, combat. I will agree in the MMA forum Traditional Chinese Arts would or has not been too effective because you have to follow rules. I cannot think of the "rules" in combat, in life or death. Geezer, I have seen more initial success with more modern styles vs any style of Kung Fu. I lend that to it is much easier to learn to fight from a standing position like Karate or TKD then a traditional stance like a Leopard style or Monkey. I feel this ties back to the instant gratification that we as a culture place on everything. At the same time I have not seen too many stand up or MMA fighters fair well against monkey or tiger or dragon at our school. Again though, it takes a lot of time and devotion to understand these concepts and their application. I do think CMA gets a lot of crap for been too old fashion, too slow to teach new techniques, and even too strict. I also think the lessons learned in this style of teaching is something that should been applied to everyday life as well. P.S. I believe, if anyone wants to get mad at the MMA popularity you should point your finger at Bruce Lee, he was the one who wondered about the of two different stylists in the same ring.
Doesn't "but also, to defend the temple from bandits" count as combat? I am not aware of any particular rules in Traditional Chinese Martial Arts. Could you explain? Yes. There's a huge problem with the overall manner in which Chinese martial arts is traditionally taught and passed down in the circles that know them. The newer ways of passing knowledge applied to these traditional arts has been mostly hit and miss in terms of effectiveness in my opinion. LOL. That's so true.
