I've seen the people you train with. Less time on kata would be an improvement for you guys, trust me.
Katsunori Kikuno is actually a pretty good example, as his fighting stance has many similarities with Sanchin dachi. As to his effectiveness, he's 21-4 in MMA. As for why we train it, I train kata because I'm Kyokushin, not kickboxing.
In one of the video's before the bell goes im sure Katsunori Kikuno is doing a kata cant member the name though. Master betty yet again I implore you to pass on you wisdom on what could be better exercise to spend time on ? I am always open to new suggestions and improving my training techniques I'm beginning to think you don't know ....
Mawashi uke, it's in the Sanchin and Tensho kata of Kyokushin among others. Considering his stance, he seems like a fan of Sanchin kata.
google Katsunori Kikuno DREAM 17 Open Training Session top link (and 50 secs into vid) is one of him doing kata ......
^^^^ this Kata can demonstrate attributes and even help beginners develop some of the attributes used in fighting. However, it is like an actor that plays a doctor on television. The actor is probably not a real doctor but he can make people believe he is one on television. In fact, the actor may actually learn as part of the study of the role of playing a doctor, learn a bit about medicine and medical procedure. However, they aren't a licensed doctor. A karateka can make people believe he can really fight based on performance of kata, but that doesn't make them a good fighter. I can see learning things through kata for beginners, but the lessons learned should eventually go the other way for someone that has studied for many, many years... your fighting experience, those attributes, should show in your kata, not the other way around.
That is a crappy example. Here's a better one: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs72JTnuvBw"]Kyokushin Karate Part I - Mawashi Uke - YouTube[/ame]
See thats the problem. I say, professional fighters don't do kata to learn anything. It teaches them nothing. NOTHING. Then, all you get is given a bunch of names of guys who have done kata in the past or come from a karate background etc. Showing some sort of respect for your art in the sense of doing a kata when you win a fight or something is entirely different from actually using it as a serious tool in your training regime. It's exactly the same as me getting in the ring and sealing it with the ram muay and wai kru. Does it mean I'm a buddhist or that I genuinely want to ask the spirits to bless my and my coach? No. It's just something unique to my art and shows my background. I'm not about to start claiming that I won my fights because the spirits blessed me and afflicted my opponent with gout or some crap.
The first one in the video is the better foot position. The second one usually has a step done to bring the other foot forward for the application.
kata training in itself just reinforces predefined sets of chained techniques. it'll make you good at doing basic technique, and you don't fight with basic technique, you fight with principles. now, the kata have gotten abstracted to hell and back, so not all of the examples of chained techniques that they present are as effective as others, but some of them are actually pretty straightforwards and decent. if you don't train THOSE though, you're just dancing. and bunkai shouldn't be trained as a choroeography either, that's just moronic. bunkai should be combat drills, and that involves hitting, being hit, failing, and trying again and again until you can do them. go find a karate school that drills bunkai like that though. few and far between. once you have the bunkai, however, you have to feed that back into both your basic technique and your kata too. else you get a disconnect between application and basics. it's not a one-way thing, it's a continuous feedback loop between isolated, abstracted principles preserved thorugh techniques (either isolated or in kata form), and principles applied to an opponent. a good deal of people just dance though.
I'm not claiming that either. All of the aforementioned names have used kata as part of their fight preparation, although obviously it takes a backseat to the other methods. Machida and Kikuno both have claimed to train a lot in kata for preparing for a fight. Pretty much any fighter with a knockdown background is going to have used kata at some point for their fight training. Schilt and Ashihara kata is probably different from what you'd expect, but it's still kata. Interestingly enough, Muay Boran has forms. Their reasoning is probably the same why karate has them. Again: not a way of training for a fight per say, more a collection of techniques and principles of a particular style. People often find one that clicks with them and use principles from those to improve their fighting. That's why you'll see someone like Kikuno with his Sanchin, or even Hajime Kazumi who was influenced by the Ikken meditation of the Taikiken system. Just two of many examples.
on it's own you wont even get good at proscribed techniques because you don't learn to swim without getting in the water and you don't learn to properly hit something without actually hitting something.
That's why kata training is more than just the form itself. It's training with a partner, using the techniques from the kata on the heavy bag and mitts, working with the various combinations to see how to effectively use them, and then trying them out in sparring. THAT is the real way to train a kata. Kata's like a technical book: just reading it (or practicing it) isn't enough, you need to go out and apply it. It's like bagwork. On its own, bagwork can't teach you how to fight, but it has applications for fighting in it. You can train bagwork in a poor manner, or in an effective manner.
exactly. every time i lead class, i have people hitting almost immediately, generally by walking down the line using my hand or arm as focus for them after they get the gross movement right. and i ALWAYS make them hit, even when i've taught complete beginners. same with blocking and parrying movements, using a simple attacking motion just so that they learn that getting someone's fist to not hit you is not as easy as it looks, so they better do it right. i also teach "loose" versions of the techniques (as if for shadowboxing) pretty early on to bridge the gap between basics and application (in application exact form will depend on who you're facing), and am an advocate of sparring as soon as someone can throw a half-decent punch and kick (and woe is me if that isn't within the first month when i open my own dojo). but i'm a bit of a heretic with this stuff. also kata is fun. i occasionally run through the 40-something forms i know just for the lulz, but i rarely train them anymore. i prefer to concentrate on specific aspects of basic techniques when i train alone.
Again, the few benefits it may be possible to gain in kata are ALL gained to a far greater degree in the 4 main things you should be doing ANYWAY: bagwork, padwork, shadow boxing and sparring. There's nothing that kata teaches that can't be taught far better in this format. Which makes kata a simple indulgence of peoples' need to feel like a TMAist. ie. a waste of time.
a waste of time for YOUR purposes. kata are cool, and kata are fun, therefore i enjoy them. when i do them it's because i want to enjoy a good kata session, therefore they fit my purposes.
