why is wing chun seen as wishy washy crap?

I wouldn't know but could understand a difference to some extent but not to a lot. A technique is done in the same way as for military or civilian use the only difference I could come up with would be due to necessity. I mean some things wouldn't be seen as self defense. The book covers disarms with assault rifles and other non civilian things. Im sure the military version just uses a few different things. In the video these guys trained with military so im guessing this is a few selected techniques that are used by either.

As for book learning anything I never said I was trying. To learn from a book isn't easily done there are key things that you can only pick up from someone actually showing and correcting. I have various martial arts books I use as reference material including several military manuals on various things. I own a big book on Wushu it goes over many techniques used in various arts and has a nice guide that goes over many Chinese art forms listing skills and weapons used. I have recently begun buying Wing Chun books I have several from William Cheung and now one on Shaolin Wing Chun by another school. If you have a good martial arts background already some things can be picked up from books but I wouldn't say you could learn an entire system.

 

I do Wing Chun, and to me there are a few reasons I guess.

The term 'internal' is thrown around too much, but certainy WC falls into the group of arts that use a combination of physical geometry and sensitivity to avoid any contest of strength. With most other arts that do this, like Tai Chi and Aikido, it's pretty much understood that by rejecting the basic physicality of fighting you are gonna have to put in years refining your skills.

Wing Chun markets itself as a quick solution. I wouldn't call that completely false, since agression and control of the centreline could produce good results against a more clueless attacker; but if you want to overcome someone who is both strong and experienced in using their strength, then your technique had better be pretty impressive.

Sadly a lot of practitioners seem to have a superiority complex too. I think that underlying insecurity plays a big part, and it's sad that people feel that way. I think that a bit of crosstraining early on benefits anyone, and really helps things from becoming too insular.

 

Essentially what you're saying is that you should keep your hands closer to the target because "that's where they are gonna end up anyway"...??? Do you not see the problem with that?

First of all, why keep any of your limbs in range for your opponent's attack?? What if they had a knife? Your arms will be slashed up! What if they want to grapple?? They can, and WILL, go for that arm that's nicely extended out for them to grab.

Second, the power of a punch comes from the explosive extension of your arm from a retracted position. How are you going to generate a decent amount of power by punching from an already extended arm??

Have you see how quickly, and with how much power you can throw a punch from a retracted position?

Also would you rather have your guard close to the vital areas of your body, or have it extended out in front of you, leaving you wide open?

It doesn't matter if you're ready to go or not....because your opponent is also ready to go! Maybe even before you are!

Have you ever trained with a grappler or a jujutsu practioner?? Do you have any idea how quickly they can apply a limb control, pull you off balance, or take you down? Do you really think you're gonna have time to react before they take you out?

Your lead hand...your best weapon....or your opponent's next target....

 

GGGGAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!! :bang::bang::bang::bang:








(also what you meant to say was "too much")

 

Lol you were never a bouncer. Not ever. At least, not what I'd call a bouncer. You may have done security at a few tea parties before, I dunno.

 

Full contact fighting (grappling included) in a ring/cage or on a mat has more similarities to fighting on the street than it does differences. That throw you've perfected to the point where you can use it in a competition with all your friends watching against a skilled opponent trying to throw you is likely to be a throw you can use if someone grabs you in a nightclub.

The same rational applies to pretty much any technique.

Ironically Wing Chun used to be extremely well known for challenge matches that closely resembled the inter clubs and competitions you get in thai boxing and other 'sport' martial arts.

What you've said basically answers the thread title.:bang:

 

A technique I like from Wing Chun follows this..anyone ever punched a pad and hyper extended your elbow? I have and it can hurt! so the technique I like is the initial guard position from Wing Chun! get it chunners?

 

lol

 

Same technique as Salab Fan Pla in Muay Bro.

 

What a nutcase, proper weirdo????

:meditate:

 

This goes for all martial arts we have a lot of Karate schools here but im fairly convinced the majority can't use it. We don't train the same as these and other Wing Chun schools I have seen. When I did TKD the majority of our practice was done in the air. It's nothing to do with a specific style I just think many people don't have the interest in actually training in a realistic way. We get hit and bruised up all the time it's just part of it.

 

heres my 2 cents

This is what I have been told over the years of wing chun training...
of course, i have since left wing chun because trying to reason with them can only get you in trouble. my point is anybody who has a brain can see something are just friggin unrealistic so why do they continue to perpetuate this notion of invincibility when the chunners just cant back up their claims.

1. wing chun can defeat a larger person using the five principles.
-->the fact of the matter is a big guy always has the advantage over the little guy.
2. wing chun is for real life situations and not for the ring cos in the ring you have to wear gloves which puts wing chunners at a disadvantage.
--> well, the truth is alot of wing chun schools just do chi sau and then they claim they can defend themselves on the street. yeah right.
3. wing chun ppl never get on the ground.
--> this means cos we dont know what to do on the ground.
4. chi sau trains your sensitivity and helps you to fight.
--> although i do agree on the sensitivity but try to apply chi sau to anyone punching you for real the thing is IMHO it doesnt work.
5. finish up with chain punch
--> chain punching not effective about 95 % of the time.
6. use the other person's force against them i.e. move second but arrive first.
--> so basically, alot of chunners just stay at one place because they are waiting for the other guy to initiate so they can get the "ideal" intercept. the fact is if you stay at one place too long you are a human sandbag.
7. make sure you are standing upright and in your wing chun stance.
--> in my experience if you stand upright in the proper wing chun stance your head is exposed so the probability of getting hit in the head is high.
8. dont do weight lifting because that will slow down your punches.

someone should add to this list.
nuff said

 

From what I've seen of wing chun, it's not the martial art that's the problem...it's the way they train.

 

There's also a definate disregard of basic physics principles when it comes to some ofthe techniques. THat's not just a flaw in how they train but something intrinsic to the very art itself. You couldn't change these things completely without basically changing the art. Too many of the wing chun schools that claim to be effective simpy take on Bruce Lee's take on JKD but still call it wing chun. Whilst I still don't consider Bruce Lee to be a fighter, at least he knew that what he was doing was changing fundemental principles of wing chun and therefore was no longer the same art.

Only a fool however would look at most JKD schools and fail to see the heavy wing chun influences however.

 

yeah it's ridiculous calling it JKD and basically just doing watered down Wing Chun (e.g., not traditional).

 

Who is making these claims!!!?

There are chunners out there who are progressive and are always adapting the system

I would agree that the five principles of wing chun are useful and can improve you as a fighter generally (ie they tidy up your martial arts)
Simple things like putting up a guard when you punch is applied in many things like boxing (attack and defend principle).

Wing chun certainly gives chunners more of a chance against a bigger opponent than say if you put a heavyweight boxer with a lightweight.
In every style I trained in (karate, kickboxing, BJJ, boxing, etc), I would have a natural advantage against smaller people of the same level. In wing chun, I didnt. Its still very silly to say that a wing chunner will always defeat a larger opponent. Big guys are tougher (more bulk to hit), and there are times where boxers of a low weight can defeat guys of a heavier weight. But wing chun does try and get students working on ways of 'shutting down' big guys.

Big 14oz gloves would make chunners struggle as they do a lot of open hand stuff, but with fingerless mitts there are no problems. In kamon, we train a lot of gloved techniques

I completely agree with the chain punching. its beautiful to watch when its done well, and some people can make it work, but I have found it a risky technique to use in a real situation, unless you are being attacked by someone inexperienced in fighting

Stancework should always be seen as a way of training the legs, nothing more. It helps you develop a low base, but to fix yourself rigid in a wing chun horse stance is suicide. Basing is important, especially if force comes in, but you have to ride the force, rather than use a stance to try and block it

You always have to move well, no matter what art you are learning. I have actually seen certain wing chun styles wait for the punch to come. If you wait to defend, then attack, you will get slaughtered

Its a shame that people see wing chun like this and you have raised some valid points about ridiculous claims. As a chunner, I would agree that pretty much all of your points are correct. The best way of training an art is to never think of what you cant do, but find ways to improve your art. If you have no ground game (as in wing chun and boxing), then find a way to either get back to your feet well, or be able to handle yourself on the floor

I would again reiterate that there are some great wing chun schools out there that are looking more progressively at using their wing chun realistically and getting away from the mythos of it (ie one inch punching, undefeatable stance, etc). Its worth looking up guys such as Alan Orr, Kevin Chan, Wan Kam Leung, James Sinclair etc

Peace out

 

i not a fan of wing chun is that good from personal experience and what i've seen.

they tend to be easy to throw off by angles, and only specialize at a specific distance. Not to mention they only seem to trap the hands when you can apply it to the whole body. Decent against someone who doesnt train, not so good against other martial artists.

My instructor even told me he beat a whole WC school with 1 hung gar move of angling while punching, including the master and grand master. He doesn't even practice hung gar anymore.

Maybe theres some really good WC guy that can prove me wrong, but that has yet to be seen. The style seems too restrictive for me.

 

Its all how youre taught/mindset/application use. I've met quite a few capable Chunners. Its just unfortunate that WC is such a popular style with so many schools you end up with a lot of bad which overshadows the good.
Its the same with all styles.

Check out Alan Orr. I do like his way of things.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxklnLPeRM"]YouTube - Alan Orr: NHB Wing Chun DVD: Old School Boxing 1[/ame]

 

The fact that it's a big skinhead who's clearly trained in something besides Wing Chun teaching it, does not mean Wing Chun is any better than it's silly mechanics dictate.

 

I think you'll find that Alan Orr utilizes his wing chun in a very good way. He has done a few other styles, but he is one of the few wing chun practitioners that can make the chun work.

And for the record, he isnt that big (Im bigger than him and he can whoop my as*)