why is wing chun seen as wishy washy crap?

Master Betty, please explain what exactly i said which was fantasy in the slightest.

do you need evidence that some people, in fact most people have a low pain threshold?????

 

and in fact most people who wield this attitude..

1) still live at home
2) haven't traveled much
3) are trying very hard to convince everyone they know it all

 

Im still here I just don't see much point in arguing im unable to demonstrate my views in a way I feel would be productive about all I can do is put in my opinions and my experience. As for chain punching it's not something a good Wing Chun person would do all the time there are other strikes in Wing Chun ranging from several styles of kicks, knees, palm strikes, knife hand and others. I have even seen major bruising from being hit with a *** Sau (the technique is spelled f u k or f oo k) and other blocking and controlling techniques simply due to the force being used by the attacker. My friend used a *** Sau and left a softball sized bruise on a guys arm.

Mostly a rolling punch or chain punch would be used at close range once contact has been made and an opening has been found. It also works to overwhelm someone. One reason we use multilevel sand bags is to train to find other targets to strike and switch quickly. Many times someone will try to cover the target by raising or dropping the hands so it's important to switch around and strike somewhere else. Sometimes a strait punch just can't get through or around an object a hooking punch can be used. As Special Curry put it he has used it as a way to close the distance this is one use for it I have done the same you just need to watch for a strike coming around them. We use a technique we call the entry technique it's basically a shoot forward in a guard but timing is key. You have to practice these things in sparring to really learn them well.


Has anyone heard of Alan Orr and what are your thoughts? These guys are involved in NHB and other things but I don't know much about them.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZnWuEwzmwM&feature=related"]YouTube - Alan Orr- NHB Wing Chun DVD- Old School Boxing[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiSYTNJDvUg&feature=related"]YouTube - Alan Orr student Neil savages The Bob[/ame]

 

Nah, I'm not saying that at all. It's just that every single post has a bunch of ideas which seem to have no basis in actual reality. Honetly, when people make statement's like these it actually makes me wonder if they've ever been in a fight - after all, it seems every single person who does this kind of art has "been attacked on th3 str33t and I like totally messed up this one dude and his friend and they were both MMA guys". I dunno, maybe I just come from a mental area, but by and large, most fights don't end until one person has been beat down severely. And if someone attacks you with a knife, you won't see the knife (or screwdriver) till its in your back. Nobody waves a knife about in your face because that takes too long and draws attention to the fact that you have a knife. After all, if someone's gonna knife you, they don't want the surrounding people to be able to identify them to the cops afterwards.

But, this attitude "I displayed my fisticuffs to the chap and felled him with one blow. He soon saw the error of his ways and we sat down for a port and cigar afterwards" is a load of bull and just doesn't happen where I'm from.

 

Man I'm living in another country with my girlfriend. Stop being an idiot.

 

My my my we are getting a tad sensitive aren't we.

 

ive sadly been in far too many fights

Id say most fights ive been involved in end with the other knowing guy he has had enough and he calls it quits... of course i could of dished out more of a beating but with a bit of experience you learn when to hold back, and really most people dont deserve to be savaged, of course we should all train to deal with a drug fuelled loon etc....

But then again you Scots are tough as old boots so I do get what your saying.

 

Oh a face palm pic, the shame

 

Wolf, Alan's people have a very good rep because they cross-train BJJ and wrestling as well as compete in MMA events.

Unless of course you go to some of the Wing Chun forums where they are told what they do isn't the REAL wing chun.

Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it.

 

come on m1k3jobs what annoyed you so much about my post?

 

Call me Mike. And, I'm not annoyed. Actually it was pretty funny and explains this thread quite a bit.

If more people who trained the chun trained and places where hitting and getting hit were a normal experience you wouldn't get near as many posts like the one you just posted. When you train at schools that compete you don't feel the need to say stuff like "Sorry to say but I've been in too many fights" and " I could have given him a real beat down but I didn't need to, he knew he lost". What a load of codswallop.

Do some sparring with people where getting hit in the face isn't a big deal and you will know what I mean.

I get hit harder where I train now than I ever did doing wing chun and I train submission grappling.

So, to the OP, this is why Wing Chun has a bad rep.

 

what makes you assume i dont spar

and just for the record, i was a bouncer for many years, thats where my expierence comes from.

actually fighting people

i can only comment on my expierence.

 

The attitude of many of the instructors in WC does seem to detract from the overall appeal as does the general lack of full contact sparing. Many valid arguments for and against it have been made hear. Trapping for instance can have a specific and effective applications but the application must be understood. also the point on its acknowledged limits (both by wolf and others outside the art) is accurate. Seems to be a true part of a system the practioners must accept that the work from clich to ground work needs to be addressed. The trademark chain punches are fine for developing openings perhaps but maybe expaning on other core techniques for use would help your arguments for WC. Many see WC as just Chain punches anymore. So two questions:
What are the core techniques other than chain punching?

What ranges would you address and how? (scapping it all isn't an option Beatty think of this as an exercise in brainstorming)

 

Wing Chun has many options but like any martial art that has become soft over time and focuses to much on sport and tournament these people don't have any ability to actually use the techniques in a fight. Anyone who has ever been in a fight knows they aren't fancy. I met years ago at least 2 people who had done Karate for a number of years but they were not able to fight well. I did TKD for a semester at the college here it was my 5th grade year and it was not at all what I was expecting. Over the years I have been to watch several tournaments and the sparring matches resemble nothing of any fight I have ever seen or been a part of. Now Wing Chun at least the school I am with was the best I have found here. I liked boxing for several reason but as I have explained I do not like the clubs here. Wing Chun was supposedly created to quickly train a fighting force the normal routine of Shaolin training took years longer to complete. If the info is in any way accurate it's a combination of several arts Crane and Snake being the most recognizable. I can't say I know of any Chinese art that uses ground grappling much most controlling arts are done while standing. I feel this is mainly due to battlefield use. In most of the wrestling forms I have seen around the world most are done while standing. I don't think it's very common for arts to grapple on the ground. Is it useful yes something, something, something, dark side, something, something, something, complete happens.

I wouldn't really call chain punches a technique more a striking method. It's one of many and it's really just based on the punching technique. WC uses the Sun Fist it's common to many Chinese arts. It's used in a number of ways such as our striking from the center but I can't say thats always possible. I was doing a class awhile back and had a guy throw strait punches at me. He was unable to strike my head all I was doing was moving so that I faced him and my hands were up I didn't do anything more. He was unable to him me because no mater what he did my hands were just always in the way. This is where Chi Sau comes in there are different methods of Chi Sau most see just the double arm stuff where your strait on with a partner not the single arm stuff. In single arm Chi Sau your in a fighting stance not in neutral. If the hands are in the way and Chi Sau techniques fail your probably going to have to use something other then a strait punch. I was thinking awhile back about something I heard about Western peoples being Head Hunters when it came to strikes. If you can't hit them in the face or head why not find a target that is open on the body or go for low kicks. If you understand the techniques found in the Dummy form there are several strikes done to the body usually one to the head then another to the body.

 

Chinese ground arts I know of are rare or at least not taught in many places.

Gouquan - Dog style

Ditangquan

 

This thread gives me the urge to do Judo and Kickboxing even more. Just putting that out there.

As for Wing Chun working and what not - I've been swayed to either side so much now that I'll just decide on it's effectiveness for me after I actually do some of it rather than just reading about it and watching vids on it off the internet.

Just my thoughts.

 

I was going through some things and found my Krav Maga book its called. Krav Maga How to Defend Yourself Against Armed Assault.
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Krav-Maga-Yourself-Against-Assault/dp/1583940081"]Amazon.com: Krav Maga: How to Defend Yourself Against Armed Assault (9781583940082): Imi Sde-Or, Eyal Yanilov: Books: Reviews, Prices & more[/ame]


One reason I bought this book was because I feel Krav Maga has many useful methods of dealing with modern weaponry and things. I also noticed how similar the techniques were and noted with a bit of change they could be adapted for Wing Chun. On page 12 there is a defense against a downward stab. Bil Sau is clearly seen being used simply called a forearm defense. It also clearly shows a strait punch in relatively the same manner as Wing Chun. Page 28 Tan Sau is used to deflect a thrust. Page 35 shows a kick to the armpit similar to a kick we train. Page 76 clearly shows a Fut Sau leading into an elbow strike this is a move I like to use. Throughout the book many traps are used against weapons and if you have the book or seen it you will notice many are directed to the arm at the elbow this is common teaching for Wing Chun. Some others are done in a similar fashion to Wing chun but they grab the arm with the thumb wrapped around as well. We use a monkey grip due to risk of injury to the thumb.

I went through the book and in many ways the techniques are very similar but they used a different attack or movement then what you would see in Wing Chun in some cases. Obviously Krav Maga has a boxing background so some of the footwork and strikes are different but in several cases a simple strait punch as used in WC is used before delivering an elbow or knee. Several techniques include a movement that resembles a Fut Sau to deflect an armed attack from behind.

http://www.pakistan.tv/videos-human-weapon-krav-maga--[MuZO7wSge94].cfm

 

Hey Wolf3001, is that military krav-maga or civilian krav-maga? I always hear that there's a big difference.

 

Book-learnin krav maga