why is wing chun seen as wishy washy crap?

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Microlamia, Oct 25, 2010.

  1. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    I don't know much about the style, but the one person I know who did wing chun, got his leg broken and had to have metal pins inserted after fighting in a wing chun contest. Doesn't exactly sound like a knitting contest to me.
     
  2. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Massive thread here...

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93683

    goes off on one though most of your question should be answered in the first few pages.
     
  3. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    So basically it has the same problem as TKD in that some schools teach solid skills but most suffer from lack of realism? I get ya..
     
  4. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    Yep, no sparring, weird stances, overemphasis on the centre line, snotty attitude towards other arts (boxing is like a sports car, wing chun is like a jet fighter was one quote I once heard!), no proper resisiting chi sau, just endless pre set drills etc etc.

    The art itself has alot to offer. I did a form of kung fu that is very similar for years and that experience helped me alot in the dirty boxing side of MMA, and in aspects such as defending myself from punches when I'm on my back.

    Wing chun is the best worst taught art in the world!
     
  5. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    this is good wing chun: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvUP76MbtJE"]YouTube - Advanced Live Wing Chun Sparring![/ame]

    but a lot people would say that it isn't proper wing chun.

    a lot of those train and fight like this: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH13kYFzfFk"]YouTube - Kyokushin Karate vs Wing Chun[/ame]

    chun has its merits, and there are very good chunners out there, but most of the rest just suck, from what i've seen so far.

    IMO, it's one of those systems that could be useful to someone clever and with good "killer instinct", who can take any move and see where he/she could use it to hurt someone, but for the basic layman who wants his first martial art and doesn't plan on ever fighting everybody, unless it's under one of the not-very-abundant good sifus, i'd say there are better arts, even for basic fitness (at least they keep their guard up most of the time though, gotta give them that :p).
     
  6. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    yep, that pretty much sums it up!

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C3JG-yg35w"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C3JG-yg35w[/ame]

    Can't beat a bit of Master Wong. Not only is he a good fighter but a very endearing human being :)
     
  7. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    his head vexes me

    it's a hexagon
     
  8. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Chunners cannot finish a fight.

    Trapping hands is excellent, I did (and do) trapping hands when I did JKD, the difference is (as I see it) is once you have bridged the trapped hand(s) you are either in boxing, elbowing or grappling range and this is where Wing Chun breaks down.

    The long and short of it is you cannot knock someone out doing chain punches. Sure I use JKD's version of the straight blast, but once I have broken the opponents posture he is getting either headbutted or elbowed. One of my students did this to me and put me through a wall at the gym. That would not have happed just from a standard straight blast.
     
  9. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Tell me you're kidding snoop? Please....
     
  10. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Actually by and large, the biggest problem wing chun has is NOT in how it's trained - though that is a large issue as well. By and large, a good deal of the techniques and how they think they apply are completely unrealistic.

    To summarise briefly the other thread:

    Poor techniques, poor training methods, poor teachers, poor attitudes and unrealistic expectations of what a fight entails.

    Generalisations of course, but because a small minority don't follow these trends is no reason not to list them as faults.
     
  11. Estrix

    Estrix Valued Member

    As an aside, I've done the blocking drill at the start of the wing chun vs Kyokushin Karate clip as a conditioning exercise. My mate and I did it for a few weeks twice a week and after the first session of it my whole forearm on the was one big bruise, but after a few weeks your arms are like blocks of wood. Few points though, its not done gently, and each step should allow for the rotation of the hip so you can fire the arm into the next position properly. I think the step through part might be an exception that that actually...haven't done it in awhile :p
     
  12. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    This is precisely my point. How much of your time did you spend doing that crap when you would've been better off learning how to throw a decent punch?
     
  13. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    One of the first instructionals I ever got was a video(yep it was awhile ago!) of Wong doing san shou (full contact kickboxing). I liked it back then and remember it being very good, great combos, kicks and throws. I haven't watched it in a long time though as I haven't got a video player anymore.

    However I can't find any san shou stuff online from him now, he seems completely wing chun so I can't post any vids that you would like showing him kickboxing. I think he's pretty good and has some nice techniques. Convincing you that coriographed wing chun rutines are good could be a bit of an uphill struggle though :)
     
  14. Estrix

    Estrix Valued Member

    Well, in reality, only my own time. We were shown it in training once, then started doing it outside of training so we had time for other things. Oh and I didn't do wing chun, I trained in Hung Kuen.
     
  15. Wolf3001

    Wolf3001 Valued Member

    I have been doing Wing Chun for many years here is my thoughts on this. I have a bit of other training but not much most of my experience of fighting comes from actually fighting as a kid in school and with older brothers. I have had to fight using what I know and cracked a guys ribs and apparently did a number on his face I fractured his cheek or something. Anyway Wing Chun to me is good but many schools haven't stuck with the idea of using it to become better or knowledgeable on how to really use it. Boxers fight each other many martial art schools do very light sparring or none at all with pads. My deal with Wing Chun is that much of it it based in the Yip Man system and his students don't always see eye to eye. I come from the William Cheung school I think it's one of the better schools but thats just me. He made a statement challenging other WC people and Leung Ting set him up recorded him rolling around on the ground and basically made a fool of us all in my opinion. I don't fully trust any of them this is just my feelings. I trained a bit with William Cheung he was friends with Bruce Lee and I will hear what he has to say but I wasn't there when he learned WC. I choose to learn what I feel works and I wouldn't train this if I thought it was crap but I know I haven't seen many good schools. My friends and I try to train in a realistic way. A good Wing Chun student if trained right I feel would do fine against Muay Thai or many other striking arts I do know that there is a lack of good ground defense. My training consists of sparring with and without pads, I use the dummy to condition my arms and I hit sand bags this is a big part of WC training. I have heard some guy used a kicking bag filled with sand im thinking of doing the same. We do Iron Palm but I have yet to learn. I lift weights 3 times a week but this isn't a major part of our style but I feel it helps. Strength isn't a big part of Wing Chun but it can't hurt. Chi Sau is good when it comes to fighting in close. There are a lot of bad schools and people who have no experience in actually using the art. I have met teachers who had good understanding of techniques but lacked the knowledge to apply them.
     
  16. Wolf3001

    Wolf3001 Valued Member

    I don't agree with this Biu Jee is all elbow strikes at the beginning of the form and many kicks to the knee along with strikes to vulnerable areas. We use elbows in close all the time. Those supposedly weak chain punches are aimed for certain areas of the body not to mention I strike sandbags, wood and brick. I don't understand why people think our strikes are weak I have seen the result of a proper Wing Chun punch. It's about the same as a jab the only time I use a chain of punches is once I have set someone up for it but at that point im going to hit with everything I have including elbows. One of my favorite combination ends with an elbow to the face while pulling the head into it with my free hand. Another such technique aims the elbow right into the point at the base of the skull. Most elbow strikes aren't taught until about the time you learn Biu Jee but I know we started learning techniques when I started Chum Kiu. If you can knock someone out with a jab to the head then I can surely knock someone out with between 1 or 3 punches with a WC punch. The shock of being drilled with 5 would be devastating.
     
  17. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    this is something i've been telling people for ages. of course you don't charge in with chain punches or you'll get owned, it's simply stupid. but if you happen to get a good opening, whether by opponent's mistake or creating it deliberately, what's the next step? punching the <beep> out of his face!
     
  18. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    In which case, why bother with a ridiculous chain punch when a good old fashioned jab cross hook combo is more than fast enough to land and has a HELL of a lot more power? Na, this to me, is one of the main problems with wing chun. Stupid techniques but rather than admit it and try to correct it, we'll just pretend that it works anyway.
     
  19. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    well, the thing about chain punching is, to my view, that chain punching isn't a technique per se, but a delivery method. you throw one punch, then you throw another, then you throw another, so on and so forth. people get hung up on trying to do the combination as fast as humanly possible but forget about the punches. the result is a slight tip-tap from each that does jack squat to the opponent. a jab-cross essentially IS a chain-punch technique, only without centerline punching using the "sun fist" punch (before you ask, the name is because the vertical fist resembles the character for "sun"), and only with two punches, with the hook being a finisher. the problem is when you keep throwing jabs and crosses and don't even bother to make contact correctly or get some good follow-through, which is what lousy chunners do.

    the "chain punch" as an endless-combo technique is <beep>ing silly. the methodology of chaining punches together is not. from there to using the latter correctly and intelligently comes down to the practitioner.
     
  20. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Very good point Fish. I would use a version of the chain punch as an 'in' only, like a progressive indirect attack where only the last punch (or elbow, headbutt etc) is intended to strike. Master Betty said why not use a jab, cross, hook combination? Well that is an attack by combination in which every strike is intended to hit, which is great if you have set the guy up or he has a moment of weakness/poor guard etc.

    I got put through a plaster wall at the gym by one of my students just doing a demonstration. I punched, he blocked and threw a very fast 3 or 4 punch straight blast to break my posture followed by something I never really saw and the next thing was a hole the size of my backside in the wall.

    So in summary chain punching is not for me, but the straight blast as a progressive indirect attack or a pre-cursor to another technique is.
     

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