Why is Taekwondo always considered weak and ineffective? *conversation included*

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by TaeAno, Oct 4, 2010.

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  1. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Its fine by me - its how things degenerate when people are 'called' about their arguments, because they are flawed or without a solid basis. EG. I am right - don't argue or else I`ll start stomping my feet - this is the internet/forum equivilant!

  2. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    I've already posted some videos of me sparring on a regular training schedule on the thai boxing forum. My very first professional thai boxing fight is on show for free at P4TV.com.

    Stop talking like you're superior because you train "for da street". There's one massive difference between training for that and training for a professional ring sport - the bar's much higher in the sport. Without being particularly bigheaded, I don't think anyone on this forum who's seen any footage of me has any illusions about how I can fight - after all it was full footage, with no editing and taken at the end of a hard session. Shows all my faults. And yet I think those same people will watch the various videos of how you guys are training and sparring and will give you the same opinion I have.

    I'm done. I've made my points. You argue points that nobody made in the first place. You ignore points that you can't argue with and just outright deny others without a basis for argument. You can't even put up videos of something good. I have. hell, if you think you have someone who can hit any weight between 63 and 72 kg get in touch and I'll match it and you can try to prove how wrong i am if that's the only way your intellect can deal with it. At least I've got something to show for it and can back up my claims. More than can be said of you. catch ye. PM me if you want another reply because I'm done arguing and I'm not going to make another personal attack within minutes of the Mods asking me nicely not to make personal attacks, no siree.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 31, 2010
  3. Peter Lewis

    Peter Lewis Matira Matibay

    Hi Stuart

    Yes, I included the :) in my text.

    I think you've hit the nail on the head here Stuart...IF trained correctly. Most do not achieve that...or even know where to start developing more effective training methods.

    Maybe these are the deluded from my category A. :D

    Yes, I fully agree and somewhere along the line there are probably more similarities than differences.


  4. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Might be fine by you my friend, might be fine by Master Betty, might even be fine by me, but MAP has its ToS so that's what we have to stick to whilst we're here :)

    Your "what the F your credentials are" can't fly here either I'm afraid :p

    Mitch :)
  5. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Well, that would be to go study under Geoff Thompson, Peter Consterdine or Marc Mcfann and give up 'sport martial arts' altogethor, if SD is your thang!

    here I see your point. The problem arises from the quest to standardize TKD globally - it didnt concentrate on the ares it should why trying to make the whole world be the same - it achived this to a point - TKD is after all the most 'standardized' art in the world, but by doing so f##ked it up, by ignoring the martial, in the quest for the art. All thats happening now is that, while not totally forsaking the art side, we prefer the martial, and are making ends to get that back.

    I disagree o a point, beacause TKD is meant to incude throws, so TKD instructors should be teaching them in a similar fashion. However, i recognise that is not the case, even for those that have 'insider' tips froma judo instructor (like me), hence why I recommend that to get really proficient in this area, my students go learn from the source, aka a judo instructor. Unfortunatly, many do not have the time/will/effort/money to do that.

    Lets be clear here, I teach throws and teach them IMO well (well enough to beat JJ guys in a comp), but thats still no substitute from getting from those that spend their time mastering them all day long.

  6. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    So repost them here! Most here are TKD and don't frequent the MT forums!

    1. I never claimed superiority, just defend my club and art. 2. Stop typing like a child texting!

    Not really - taking a hit is the same, however I agree the fitness bar needs to be higher.

    Again, post the link here! BTW, I dont thing your a big head, just niave about an art you don't know much about, which is not uncomon considering most that actually do the art know little about it either!

    That were debunked ;)

    You made them - I disagreed.. doh!

    Don't deel i ignored ANY points - hence why I quote you word for word, but if I missed one, please state them here and I will address them. OR are you refering to yourself - quote my points and discuss/argue them - so far, its you that seem to not answer/address certain points - some even bolded so you cannot miss them!!

    I didnt put any videos up, but I`ll show you mine if you show me yours lol :love:

    Not here you havnt, despite me asking!!

    OOOO.. a challenge - as if I ad them before, and you talk about intellect!! LOL

    So have I - safe students, one who was attacked by 3 thugs, one with a baseball bat - he's still walking!! - you been then?

    "said of of me" - WTF do you kow about me LOL

    Yup.. enjoy the darkness! :cool:

  7. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Sure thing boss -sorry, just like to know who I`m talking too :cool:

    Last edited: Oct 31, 2010
  8. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Couldn't be, as you don't know me. :bang: :p
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2010
  9. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I think my points been missed. TKD should aim to be the best it can in my eyes so should do exactly what the best do and take its training methods from boxing, muay thai,sub wrestling, BBJ and Judo and their close relatives.
    That was in responce to you saying you just want to move forward even if its not the best way.

    Fair play to you if thats the case,. Personaly id like to see some kind of definite link between TKD and Judo in the curriculum where Judo instructors are employed.
  10. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Point is - which of those is the best!!! You can't say borrow from the best, then give 5 different examples - which is the best? To me, the fact that you have pointed out 4 similar grappling arts, shows none 'is the best' and all can learn from each other, as well as TKD learning from them - again, we have to come back to 'time invested' - very few have the time invested to train in TKD, judo, MT and BJJ, let alone the money. Master Better says he fights for £50 a fight - many of my students earn that per hour in their day jobs, so why would they bother, I think the average students veiwpoint (those that make up 99% of ALL arts), has been missed here!!

    And that was in response to difference of opinions (such as yours), IMO, it is the best way forward, though are happy for others to disagree IF they are moving forwards themselves - forwards is forwards and that is better than stagnent.

    Again, the man that inducted judo throws into TKD was a judo instructor (or Yudo as they call it) - its the fact that its been neglected for so long thats the problem, so yes, TKD schools should employ Judo instructors to get back on track (if required), but really, it shouldnt have been/be neccesary!

  11. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    Why is this any surprise? Any ring sport you train up for a match to 'peak'. The same is true with any sporting competition. This is the reason if you are on a school sports team they start pure conditioning 'training camps' before the season starts. Do you know why they do this? Because they know you've been a lazy ******* off-season and it is time to whip you back into shape.

    Now why do people get 'out of shape' (and by out of shape I mean down from your 'peak') in the first place? Because the intense training for the ring or a sports season is not sustainable in regular life. It needs to be focused. It needs to be intense. Ideally it is the center of your world.

    With something like TKD, a 'lifestyle' art this can't fully be sustained. Obviously there is overlap (because TKD has a big sporting component), but if you're a dad with a couple of kids its a bit selfish to have a training regimen all focused around yourself. Over the long haul (years) the training regimen will fluctuate (depending on the demands of the 'rest of life') but the goal is to be at a better fitness level overall than you would be without it.

    I can only speak for myself here but I think trying to be the one stop style as a martial art is a mistake. Most MMA schools at least segregate classes into MT and BJJ and they often segregate it further with boxing focused classes (rather than all MT) and wrestling focused classes (rather than just lumping all groundwork under BJJ). So to say, "Hey. TKD groundwork sucks." Well come on! Karate groundwork is not really all that stellar either. And even Judo typically has more of a throwing focus then Judo. Heck I've met BJJ purple belts who say they feel their throws are really lacking and that their only real strategy for 'getting it to the ground' is pulling guard.

    Again some disagree with me, but I think trying to be the 'one stop' martial art is a mistake. You have to have some focus. Mitch likes Clinch work. A good addition. I prefer adding a few boxing drills and the karate type sweeps and calling it good. And this is coming from a guy with some throwing and groundwork experience (5 years of Sambo). But that is such a huge pandoras box I don't even think of opening it when I teach TKD. Better they devote the required time to learn it rather than a technique here and a technique there (in my opinion).

    So I have to disagree with you on some of your points. We can't cover everything, nor should we try (again my opinion only).
  12. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Yes this was already done in Original TKD, as it was a consolidation of the fighting systems around at the time, which were available to the military guys in SK. Sadly as it moved to the civilian side, it became softer, with many leading a sports movement & so many instructrs seeing that they could make more money offerring a watered down kiddie version of Martial Fun which could be also called Take My DOugh!
    So all schools have to do, is get back to the roots & they would today have to use outside MA instructors to supplement what they don't know, which as been lost in most TKD places around the world
  13. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Yes we must remember that the Jidokwan was actually housed in a Judo school AND the man you refer to is Dr. Dong Ja Yang, PhD. He was a leading figure in a previous SK TKD reform movement. At a time he was the president of the US & PanAm bodies for the WTF & an under-secty general for the ITF, as well as the Chair of the ITF Collegiate Committee. He was indeed the instructor who demonstrated extensive mat work, throws etc on the 1st ITF Official Training Films, circa early 1970s!
  14. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    I do feel TKD as a whole needs to up its game, but also can't see it happening as a world wide movement, though many instructors employ training methods to 'up their own clubs' game.

    The comparison made earlier when someone post a grading video (whether mine or not) I found a little silly, not cos people can't have a view on the video, but because some cannot seem recognise that its a grading video for TKD, so like it or lump it, certain elements have to be done/shown. Comparing a grading video, with techical stuff required to training up and fighting in a ring contest seems a silly comparisom to me (apples/oranges type of thing), hell its not even training shown in the video.

    Comparing two fights would have been better, or two training regimes or two club training regimes (even better) would be a better comparisom. But then we can't as they have different rules sets and even different emphasises (ie. the best way to win) + of course there personal opinions on what each person likes - as far as sport goes,many like the fast flow and head kicking of ITF based TKD matches, just as others prefer the hard low kicks in Thai matches etc.

    Many ITF'ers slate WTF matches for their lack of punching, but they dont care, they like their rules which is why they compete under them. This doesnt mean they at the club they don't train to punch, just taht in the sport they are not allowed!

  15. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    We also should keep in mind, that while Original TKD can be good as a vehicle to better defend oneself, it also seeks to impart other traits to students of this well rounded Art. Since that is the case, TKD will not be the most efficient way to learn SD ONLY!
    If it is purely street SD that one wishes to learn, they simply have to seek out a combat centered program.
    Combat centered programs can not be compared to original TKD, as they are different activities. Combat training that is focused on SD should always be better than a TKD program that includes SD. This to me is easy to see.
    That does not mean that some TKD schools do not have a good SD program. As such, simply painting all TKD with a very broad brush is also fair IMHO!
  16. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    Hey all. I'm locking this one up. After 31 pages it should come as no surprise we're all starting to sound like broken records. I think everyone had a good chance to voice their opinions. Besides I was worried that attention to this thread would take away to the 'musical pattern application' thread I'm about to start. ;)
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