Why is Taekwondo always considered weak and ineffective? *conversation included*

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by TaeAno, Oct 4, 2010.

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  1. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Mate if you really wanna talk abotu thai boxing come to the thai boxing forum. You obviously never had a clue even when you apparently DID follow it. those guys brought the sport to the country. They WERE the only coaches. They WERE highly respected because at leas twhat they were teaching was a big step up from the semi contact bullcrap that was getting taught in most kung fu/karate/ tkd schools of the time.

    By most modern coaches and fighters standards they are crap. They DONT produce good fighters and the only people who still respect them as such are either ex students themselves or grossly misinformed.

    The best, and indeed ONLY fighter they ever produced that I'd rate was Ronnie Green and here's the deal - he didn't do any other martial art before except kickboxing. He spent most of his time training in thailand, away from their shoddy TKD influences and he was the ONLY one to fight top thais and beat them. None of their pupils have ever surpassed this.

    If you wanna argue with any of these points from your grossly ignorant viewpoint then send me a PM.
  2. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Doh! And what about when striking and trying to kick!!!! Point Made!

    Okay - prove to me that when a TKD punches its not a TKD punch or when a TKD kicks its not a TKD kick - in fact prove to me that when a BJJ kicks, its not a copy of a TKD kick!

    As have most other MMA fighters - again, thats the whole point!!!!!!!! Though TBH, I cant argue the point with you, as Im not that up on MMA and the fighters anymore, but feel pretty sure people will train for an MMA competition by whatever means gives them an edge!

    Not whinging - just saying you look like a hypercrite saying it - and you do.


    Ps. this guy seems top do okay against a kick boxer!! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qnrIGOK4CQ"]YouTube - ITF Taekwon-Do vs Kickboxing MMA 2 (stand-up) - Adam Paterson[/ame]
    Found that in 2 secs on Youtube btw.. what was your point btw.. that TKD cant stand up against other striking arts .... hmmm... :bang:
  3. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    I don't - I find the ring sport part really boring and lost interest years ago. Moreso - on forums I speak about what I know about, not what I dont!

    Well, TBH, I didnt really follow it, just martial arts in general. Still, looks like a case of goose/gander to me here!

    Oh - you mean the "sport" side of martial arts - thats cool - hate what you will, its only the sport, not the art after all.

    Or group 3: people that have a little courtesy and respect for what they did for the art in the UK, most other arts recognise their pioneers!

    Ah! Yes, loved the machine gun, Sandy Holt was decent, didnt like Kash Gill much but he seemed to do okay. In the US I use to love Troy Dorsey as he kicked like a TKD'er lol

    -- Aww.. playa hater :p

    My viewpoints not ignorant, I just stopped following the MT movement a decade or so ago. What is ignorant is coming on a forum, slating the styles ills, but not being able to diffieniate between the two main styles in the system, as you showed earlier. I suggest you stick to what you know about my friend!


    Ps. No offence meant here, but how old are you and how long have you been studying MT? I only ask as your profile picture seems to look like teenagers/20 somethings.. but your username suggests you are a Master in MT?
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2010
  4. Toki_Nakayama

    Toki_Nakayama Valued Member

    "TKD cant stand up against other striking arts" = ignorance and gross generalizations
  5. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    The nature of the competition isn't the issue, the fact is that you can compete virtually every weekend of the year and never step outside your chosen style of TKD.

  6. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    I'm 25. I fight pro.

    not that it matters since there are no "masters" in thai boxing regardless of what sken toddy and co will have you think. Lol seriously dude, you think my name's betty? hahaahaaaaahaaaa

    sandy holt did ok in the western arena but not against thais. Neither did Kash "the flash" gill who mainly competed in full contact kickboxing.

    For the record, i did TKD. To say that because I have pretty much the same opinion on both styles of TKD is accurate. To suggest that the only reason for this is because I'm ignorant rather than, hey, I just think they're both crap for much the same reasons is being a little bit dismissive.
  7. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    No your point isn't made. A BJJer will tend to use ONLY BJJ in a grappling context. It's a grappling only art. Despite what people wanna say about TKD, it's a striking only art. A BJJer can rely solely on their knowledge of BJJ when the fight comes to grappling. A TKD guy can't rely on JUST TKD when it comes to striking - despite being a purely striking art.

    The vast majority of up and coming strikers in MMA use only a few different striking arts. Usually boxing, thai boxing, kickboxing or kyokushin. There are some others but usually they're the majority. When it comes to striking under an MMA context, most of these arts will stand up to scrutiny with, as i said before, little to no alterations. TKD can't.

    Don't make a fool of yourself by claiming that a TKD roundhouse kick is the same as a thai style roundhouse kick, which, as we all know, is by far the most practical kick there is. It's the one people train, not a TKD style kick. You wanna prove the difference? Get two guys of equal ability and weight who kick in each respective style and you'll see a vast difference in power. I'm not saying that it isn't possible to kick hard with a TKD roundhouse but on a practical level it falls far short.

    And that kickboxing video to me just looks like 2 full contact TKD guys. A large percentage of TKD schools also class themselves as kickboxing schools anyway. Same as shotokan.
  8. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Okay thanks. And you have been doing MT for how long?
    Pro - as in you make your living from fighting right?

    Not what I think - that was the names they went by!

    No.. just your attitude towards other arts! :p

    Oh, forgot - Bob Spour looked decent too - especially with his background! Still, now I understand you judge all by competition cards!

    Cool - yet you still cant distinguish between the styles!! Still - with who, how long etc. etc. If you gonna slate something, show you have enough knowledge to point out its short comings. Oh, and if its under 5 years, don't even bother.

    Your previous posts suggest you don't know the distinction I`m afraid!

    Or simply factual! Stupid is what stupid does as the saying goes! ;)

  9. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Pro means i fight at a certain level and get paid for it - there isn't enough money in the sport to make a living at it unless you either live in thailand, compete in K1 or are at the very top of the game.

    I trained with AIMAA under "master" kirkwood for a few years. I also spent some time with "master" darcy and attended some sessions with "master" ameris. Not as many as 5 years.

    And to be honest with you, if you're actually gonna suggest that you need to train in a martial art for more than 5 years to be able to judge how effective it is then you're deilberately being a moron.

    after a year training in my current club I could fight better than anyone I did TKD with - and that included the so called "masters" of 5th degree and that.
  10. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Sorry, but think it was - quite clearly!

    Except when they are kicking and punching of course!!!

    So they borrow from others when they strike!! Doh! (Knew that already btw).

    Not according to its founders manual its not - suggest you study it a bit deeper! I wont even mention any historical context!

    In your opinion - like I said, prove that punch wasnt a TKD punch or a TKD kick etc. In fact, prove the BJJ'ers arn't using TKD kicks actually. Note my Big John McCarthy point - you know more about MMA than him do you? He employed a TKD instructor to improve this area (just in case you missed it) - I`ll repeat - do you know more about MMA than him?

    LOL - I know the mechanics are different, but dont agree one is more practical than the other - you do know TKD use shin kicks as well right - or are youignorant to that fact?

    Doh! I just posted a video I found on YouTube doing exactly that - no searching, just what came up - Kicking Boxing & TKD!!!

    I take SD's not your big thing then - the TKD Turning kick (which is its correct name for those that actually know such basic TKD terms) is done so to kick with shoes/boots on - aka as in military. MT kicks are done to cause damge shoeless - hence looking for a more formidible striking tool than a shoeless foot!

    Oh - so two guys doing similar striking - I can accept that (it didnt look too MMA to me either, despite its title) but still shows what your saying is BS!

    Cant speak for shotokan, but I agree, theres some TKD schools that do this and without some KB instruction, they are speaking crap. Hell, I know of one thats now an MMA school because its the last 'big thing' - its all about the ££££ my friend. We may be arguing, but we still arguing about the 'arts'!!

  11. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Fair enough. Remember im not saying TKD is totaly ineffective ,my points are about why its percieved as inneffective and that I believe its TRAINING METHODS are not as effective as the other arts I mentioned.

    Fair enough again.

    I personaly dont agree it is the best way to move it forward. IMO TKD should basicaly train exactly the same way and test themselves competatively exactly the same way as the experts in the area that TKD is trying to cover. If its throws for example just train in exactly the same way as Judo people do. If not the TKD school that just does throws willy nilly with no direction or training structure will be looked on as ineffective by those that do know about throwing and how its trained.
  12. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Are you so goddamn moronic that you actually argued that first point again? I said "BJJers will ONLY use BJJ in a GRAPPLING CONTEXT and that TKD ers CNAT use only TKD IN A STRIKING CONTEXT" You brought the subject of other martial artists cross training. If you know anything about MMA you'll know you cna roughly divide a fight into 4 areas. Striking, Clinch, wrestling and grappling. BJJ is an example of an art that focuses on ONE aspect of this and does so to a degree in which an MMA fighter can easily get by knowing ONLY that one art for that area. When it comes to the striking area, a TKD guy is in a real pickle if TKD is all he's got. Don't make an absolute dong of yourself again by saying something moronic about BJJers kicking - its completely missing the point.

    Big John Mccarthy isn't a fighter. end of. And don't paraphrase someone else because you don't have the background knowledge yourself to make a convincing argument.

    Unless you're kicking with a massive pair of boots on like they had in the military then you're point about how lethal you are in SD is absolute horse wang. The average person wears a pair of trainers or shoes. Kicking someone with them on makes very littles difference.

    AAnyways man theres no point in you taking the high horse here. You've claimed to be some sort of forward thinking TKD guy, y 'know, bringing TKD kicking and screaming into "da 21st century" and showing how effective it is etc. Yet all I've seen in your videos is a bunch of the same tired old crap. Board breaking, patterns, poor sparring, worse grappling and generally sucking at everything. Take that personally if you want to but if you're gonna put yourself out there then be prepared to face the criticism. The stuff you posted was crap. You're only kidding yourself on if you think the stuff in that video is in anyway comparable with the way a full contact fighter trains for a pro level fight.

    And yes theres rules on the street but I'll stick my gloves and shin guards on and fight your best student near my weight and he can do all the lethal awesome street fighting skills you've taught them in those videos and I'll still wipe the floor with him. Why? Because I'm anything special? hell no! I'm a C class novice professional fighter who gets paid 50 quid plus ticket sales and expenses when he fights. Im a nobody. But I train in a way that is far more conducive to actually fighting and getting in the ring does NOT leave you the room to learn bullcrap - which is exactly what you can do when you're messing around, kidding yourself and your students on that you're learning to whoopbutt on the street. You never actually have to prove that any of this stuff works. In the ring, there's no room for bullcrap. Its you and him and everyone thats watchign can see exactly whats what.
  13. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    As were mine, which I answered in my first post on this thread.

    Oh I agree, but then we are talking about 'methods' not the art itself - there are different roads to achieve what we want (same goals), some are ideed better than others.

    Its not about 'best way', just moving it forwards. there are other ways as well, which depending on your viewpoint may be better - but moving forwards is to me, the main thing, one way or another.

    TKD , like or love it, choose its area of competition, just like other arts did. No ones telling a Judo guy they should be mixing it up with KK or MT, or even BJJ - again, no matter your opinion (or mine - of which I have been fairly vocal in the past), TKD choose its avenues and the majority of its 5 million practioners are happy with that, as TKD Mitch pointed out!

    Well, the few throws in TKD are technically Judo (as thats their source), so they are trained in the same way, witht he exception that we can't invest as much time ont hem as a Judoka, as we have other areas to train as well. If your refering to randori, we do similar as part of our training btw!

    Thats because it is - here is where we totally agree. Still, Judoka can't kick lol ;)

  14. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Just a reminder that personal attacks are against ToS on MAP. Keep away from the "are you so moronic" comments please.

  15. Peter Lewis

    Peter Lewis Matira Matibay


    Just noticed your 'Guardian of real TKD :)' claim. :rolleyes: Awesome!

    I've followed this thread almost from the start, dropping in and out and sometimes sharing some of my own experiences. It has taken many directions and not all informative. What seems to be coming out of it are:

    A) TKD practitioners that strongly believe that their art is highly effective, being equal or superior to most other arts. RESPECT! We have to believe in what we do otherwise we would look stupid admitting that it is inferior...problems may arise when 'outside the comfort zone' especially when facing weapons, raw aggression, or close-range experts.

    B) TKD practioners that acknowledge some flaws in the art (or many flaws in the art) and are searching for answers on how to bridge the gaps and make it more effective. RESPECT! Your eyes are open and hopefully you will find the right answers that you seek. Problems may occur as you realise that there may be big gaps to fill...spending time on one art can see rapid progress, but trying to learn several slows down the progress in all until a certain skill level is achieved.

    C) Outsiders (like me!) who have other experiences to share and hope that someone is listening. RESPECT! :cool: Problem can be that we are only seeing the flaws in TKD and not the good points...risk to us may be that one day we catch a TKD kick in the solar plexus (as I have done) and realise that pain is still pain regardless of which MA it came from...a humbling experience. :hat:

    For the TKD guys...are you getting the answers that this thread intends to give?

    With respect

  16. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    It was a question not a statement.
  17. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Please keep away from that langauge, regardless of how it is used.

  18. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    For me and the angle im coming from it is about the best way. The most efficient and best way to learn that gets rid of any nonsense or cornyness.

    The problem with that is those styles are what they are and dont claim anything else. They concentrate on their one area to a high level. On this forum and this thread its claimed TKD contains elements of striking, throws locks holds and sweeps and a little grappling. Judo,for example is not saying it contains striking so they will admit its striking is going to be poor compared to boxing for example. If TKD is going to say throws are integral to its system it has to take the criticism if its not up to scratch.

    Im refering to things that someone who does not train in judo might not even know they dont know about when it comes to training.Thats not a typing error. There can be things we dont even know we dont know about. Theres alot more to it. Specific drills or fundamentals and structure and little tips and tricks. A Judo instrucutor should be teaching throws if TKD is going to have them. If not its getting amaturish and another reason why it will be looked at as ineffective.
  19. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    No.. I re-emphasised the point because I disagree with you and pointed out the flaw in your opinion. If thats moronic, so be it, personal, I disagree that TKD'ers (decent ones) can't strike - as long as they are training for full contact of course. I have fought in a number of TKD comps from yesteryear (under Frank Bowens org) and did just fine btw!

    Ch'ang Hon TKD employs striking as standard, so why would anyone feel that way!! Half of its striking is based on western boxing these days, so again, your agrument doesnt make sense - its not about the techniques, its about the way they are trained, which obviously would be trained to a 'full contact' degree if one is to enter a full contact MMA bout - unless of course they are an idiot (which I agree, has happened in the past).

    No, I know little of MMA, but do know about fighting, in that we have talking distance, vertical grappling (which includes clinch work) and horizontal grappling/striking + of course their mates stamping on your head!

    But still can't compete in MMA without studying others!!

    Do you mean all he's got totally, or all he's got if hes trained some BJJ as well? If the latter, then I think he'd do fine, as some have proved already!!

    "Dong" lol - its completely on point for someone that disagrees with you about TKD's striking ability - do you not see that!!!

    LOL - shows how much you know - go check out his history! And I don't even know that much about MMA. BUT, even if what you say is true, "big John" knows his MMA so I think he knows what hes talking about!!

    Don't think I ever said I was "lethal" at SD - but what I do is good enough my friend, provena nd tested by both myself and my students over the years!

    LOL.. if you say so!

    Your 25, please stop speaking like a child, texting his mates!

    LOL, IYO.. which means very little unless we know who you aere and what the F your credentials are to make such bolsterous claims!

    Not taking nothing personal. I know my students, their abilities, so know you are full of crap!

    Err, doh! Who said anything about traing like a "full contact fighter" - I suggest you get your arguments in order and not add "extra" claims in!

    Post your video's Rocky!

    Last part may be true. Though more importantly, you miss the essense of martial arts.. still, you have time. And your last street fight was when? And why?

    Yet, still it works.. weird that!

    The ring, oh, you mean the sport again. Well, must admit, only been there a couple of times (mainly because its not my thing), but fought 3, won 2, 1 by KO - got beaten once, but not cos of his level of contact, just cos he was massvely tall and 20 kgs heavier than me - and still he only won by points! As for street, my students records are much better! Same with TKD comps.

    Yup - we represented TKD well! :cool:

  20. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Yes.. but notice the smiley too... its very much 'tongue in cheek' my friend.. no claims at all!

    I believe TKD, as an art is effective - IF trained correctly - IF not, then its bunk.. much like any other arts - and I have seen the good , bad and dam right ugly of most!

    Actually, I disagree. Most TKD'ers are blind to the flaws. Those that arnt try to deal with them. The biggest gap being is ground work, and though we cover that for the 'average' student, I wouldnt hestitae to recommend training at a specific ground based class (such as BJJ) to make it better.

    Opened minded people learn from all sources, I am happy to listen and learn, ven from Miss Betty (sorry Master Better - joke :cool:). One thing I know is that whatever art you study, IS your base art, but martial arts ae all encompassing, we learn, what we can, when we can, from who ever we can, this is progress for a true martial artist!

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