Why is Taekwondo always considered weak and ineffective? *conversation included*

Arh! Do we have a Bullshido boy here! Anyways, if you missed that part then I suggest you get a certain book that shows a report of a) a battle when it was used (as reported by the USMC) and b) The Times Newspaper reporting how the view-con were told NOT to engage Korean tropps cos of their unarmed combat skills!

Which techniques do you refer to?

Not really. Id say if you have a large tool box to choose from, pick the tolls that work best for you and the situation!

Not for me and anyone who knows me knows that - I dont follw the prescribed TKD docterines (and for good reason). But please clarify some of the items you are refering to? (Thanks)

"Prescribed fashion" - are you talking in sport context? Whats a prescribed fashion for say a side kick - to you?

Sport stuff. When we train realistically, we are more straight on (like a boxer) allowing both sides to be used - what you describe is a sport fighting context - still, a kick is a kick to me and can be delivered from a variety of stances depending on the situation at hand.

Which books are you reading? Even from General Choi's encys, the first turning kick (roundhouse as you call them) taught 'officially', is delivered from a forward facing stance, not side on!

No, theres nothing wrong with cross-training. though there is something wrong in saying things are not in a system and need to be trained elseware, when they clearly are in the system - you just have to study it!

Stuart

 

You know, thats an interesting point I`ve never considered before!

And besides, when a TKD'er does take that 'intrepid step', from what Ive seen they do pretty okay - if they train up for it - LIKE - other MMA atheletes do! Whose that ex-TAGB guy that holds the record (or did) for the fasted KO in MMA .. er, Mark... er, Weir!! :love:

Dunno if things have chnaged, but the three top Thai Coaches in the UK in the 80's and 90's (Master A, Toddy & Sken) all trained TKD to BB levels and credit it (TKD was crystal clear in Master Skens demo's in the 90's), so technically anyone who has their lineage has some TKD in them anyway - do we get props

Stuart

 

Sorry if I`m being a bit dumb here - but isnt that an integral part of MMA (which is what we are talking about right!).

Its funny, these days, when a BJJ'er wins an MMA bout he's still classed 'BJJ', but when a TKD'er does okay - suddenly he's 'cross-trained' and not classed 'TKD' anymore - does that not seem a bit hypercritical !!! After all, the very definition of 'MMA' is cross training or 'mixing' arts hence the term!

Stuart

 

Theres been that many discussions I have seen similar and its the same people who will never take change their minds. People who have invested heavily in TKD and are instructors etc are just not going to see what is being said here. It would knock the house down if they did. Its needs some seriouse critical thinking for TKD to improve.

Overal TKD is just not trained as good and up to date as the full contact arts of boxing,Muay Thai, Sub wrestling, Judo and BJJ and their close relatives. These are the standard bearers that TKD should basicaly steal and borrow from in terms of training methods and drills and fundamentals. Its doesnt matter that they and virtualy all their techniques can be tested ,full contact,high intensisty in a 'sporting' context because the fact that they can crosses over for SD brilliantly. Its also means they keep improving because they are under a constant test.
It doesnt hold up,for me, that some TKD people include throws or some grappling. Bugger all that just go and steal ,rob,nab and borrow from Judo or BJJ or sub wrestling and do exactly what they do to get themselves better at what they are doing.

Putting TKD techniques into those kind of enviroments proves to the individual what works and what doesnt with no doubt. So it would force everything else to be dropped. It would HAVE to.At the minute the corny,too deadly stuff that brings TKD down is still able to survive because they are allowed to by the poorer training methods and 'demonstations'.

I still train in TKD and I enjoy it so its constructive criticism as far as im concerned.

 

This is why I can't stand these debates Stuart. Anderson Silva can say in his credit his TKD training as something that 'still saves him in fights today' and call his instructor a 'great man' and say he learned the 'discipline he needed to be successful' in his TKD school, but detractors will just dismiss it. These are Anderson's own words, but clearly his TKD training just held him back. Note, btw, Anderson *is* a MT fighter. But he does seem to feel TKD helped form him into the fighter he became.

But its all wasted breath. The real reason that this question comes up is because people know they can troll and make a couple of incendiary comments and the thread will get an immortal life.

Personally I'm past caring. You don't like it, fine. Don't train it. Laugh at me. Mock my white pajamas. Do impressions of my "KIYAAAA!!!!" Flat out tell me, or insinuate, that I live in a pretend world for mental midgets. Its all cool. The world needs idiots and I'm here to fill that need. So thank the stars you are not the misguided ones and let me get back to my martial fantasy...

 

Or maybe we just disagree. You know, over half my class are adults and late teen students, now surely they have minds of their own. They are exposed to UFC & MMA, trained with lots of other arts at seminars (including MMA), yet are still there! Surely they all have different 'wants' from doing martial arts, and if it was deemed so ineffective, surely I`d just have a kids only student list!

This I agree with. But when I talk TKD, I talk about what I do at my school, not the whole TKD world - I know the flaws in the worlds most popular TMA and it irks me a lot, and I never stand up for them, I am one of their detractors. I do stand up for TKD however, as I feel its more the McDojangs that give it its bad rep.. multiplied by its popularity.

But maybe we don't wanna drop everything else.. maybe we like some of the stuff that has no SD value, but can have sporting context or is just dam plain hard to do - there are other facets to martial arts than simply knockinga guys head off!

Stuart

 

You know, these arguments always seem to come from people that have either quit TKD, or have never done it in the first place (Badger Ladder obviously the exception here). So I take it that most of those that do it, see the benefits and either are happy with the flaws or are doing something about them, rather than jumping ship.

According to 'Big John McCarthy' the UFC referee, most MMA'ers can't kick - and he employed a traditional TKD instructor to sort that out with his guys. And the weird thing is (Todd - the instructor) AFAIA teaches many other parts of TKD to them, not just kicking. That strikes quite a clear message to me, as big John McCarthy has an extensive MMA background, so if he sees value from an MMA perspective... hmmm.. maybe hes got a point! But no.. he must be wrong, after all I`ve seen the crappy vids on Youtube!

Actually, one of my students does both TKD and MMA. Hes about 25 and has done TKD for around two years and MMA for around a year. I`ll ask him if theres any cross-over and specifically if TKD has helped his MMA in anyway. I know the MMA has helped his TKD as he's pretty good with the groundwork side when we do traditional sparring (at least for his grade of 4th kup).

Good point

Stuart

 

Definitly. If someone wants to do something just because they want to then fair play. You make a good point.
I am not saying TKD is ineffective im saying overal its not as effective as those doing more full contact where all their techniques are tested competitively and those people look at TKD and see thecorny stuff and look at it has weak and ineffective.

I just dont think that an instrcuctor/s will turn around and say 'I was wrong class.we are changing training ideas to this'.Some might. Its takes balls and it would be admiting they were wrong. I cant see it happening. Especialy those that invest alot into what they have said.

Good points too. And I agree that if people just want to do things then fair play. Though as I said if a TKD practitioner then tries to say,for example, this is a throw or this is a clinch moment or whatever ands its just poor or corny another martial artists who realy knows throwing or clinching will consider it weak and ineffective.
Personaly I think some TKD stuff is just excersize or conditioning and not for application or just TKD's way of trying to show a basic idea.

 

Then why are your school's videos not reflective of this attitude?

 

Many boxers go into MMA. The better ones dont simply because theres still a hell of a lot more money in Boxing. Many judoka do as well.

I don't think that you can say people from TKD don't get involved in MMA is because they get all the competition they need from TKD. We both know competition TKD is basically like playing full contact tag. Sure, there can be power and it can be dangerous etc. but it can hardly be compared with MMA.

 

I'll just say for the record that they were not the TOP coaches. They were the only coaches. They STILL coach today and by most other western coaches standards are pretty crap. They DONT produce good fighters and tbh with you the heavy TKD influence in the stuff they do is a large part of this.

 

No it doesn't. Because typically speaking, a BJJer will, when grappling, use only the things he's taught in BJJ. It's why so many MMA fighters manage to get by with some good BJJ skills and some basic thai boxing. TKD however, doesn't stand on it's own as a striking style. There aren't ANY who get into the ring using ONLY TKd as their sole striking style. NONE. Even the so called TKD champions under the various mixed rulesets have cross trained in a bunch of other striking styles.

The point about BJJ can refer to various other arts as well. Shogun has an obvious thai boxing influence, machida - karate, bas rutten kyokushin etc. All of these styles stand up on there own as a sole striking style with little to no modification for a mixed ruleset. TKD has to change HUGELY in order to cope and then people like you whine when others who know the fighting game say they aren't using TKD.

 

You miss my point - surely some of those training want SD, even if not all - but they stay, cos they feel it covers what they need!

Well, Ive changed a lot of stuff thats not the 'TKD Norm' - I don' t feel I have to say "hands up, I was wrong" - just "this is a better way to train for the results we want to achieve"!

The rest is really in the eye of the beholder - I do TKD and like the opportunity to make patterns more than the sum of their parts - others can go to a Jui-jitsu club to learn locks, but then miss the point of pattern apps training - either is fine, but only one moves TKD forwards IMO.

Stuart

 

Suggest you go 'compare and contrast' on Youtube before making such BS statements!

I happy for you to have your opinions on the videos, each to his own, but when you say stuff like that, it looks like you know jack about TKD - so why are you on the TKD forum!!!

Stuart

 

And theres the problem with your argument - here you refer to WTF TKD, where-as, many of those you are speaking to do Ch'ang Hon/ITF TKD - you need to learn the difference before casting generalizations!

Stuart

 

Lol dude THEYRE STILL LIKE FULL CONTACT TAG. Adding power to it doesnt change that. Man, you're a clear case of someone seeing what they want to.

 

Splitting hairs me thinks. Sken, A & Toddy were and are still, highly regarded!

Well, long since stopped following the MT scene - so who IMO are the top UK MT coaches today?

LOL - thats too funny - now TKD is at fault for MT instructors!!!

For the record, in their prime, they seemed pretty decent as both instructors and producers of fighters - I doubt they were the 'only ones' as you suggest, just the ones who always seemed to make the press - maybe theres a reason for that!

Stuart

 

The "point" is exactly this: if they're gettin taught bullcrap then they wont know what they need. Actually this is the biggest issue with most martial arts that dont translate well as a viable fighting system. People make the argument that people obviously get what they feel they need or they'd leave but they completely fail to realise that if they're getting taught a load of rubbish that SOUNDS like it'll work then they'll never know what they need. Hence they think what they're getting taught is amazing.