Why is Taekwondo always considered weak and ineffective? *conversation included*

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by TaeAno, Oct 4, 2010.

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  1. TaeAno

    TaeAno Certified Ninja

    Anthony : Saw this and lol'd. Expecting defense statements now...
    TAEKWONDO sucks
    www.youtube.com
    taekwondo taekwondo taekwondo
    21 hours ago · Comment · LikeUnlike · View Feedback (22)Hide Feedback (22) · Share · See Wall-to-Wall · Flag

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    Jan
    Don't hate the style, hate the people in this video because they obviously haven't learned it effectively. If you want me to show you that taekwondo doesn't suck, I'll demonstrate it on your ass.

    Just because you see some people get their as...s beat and apparently "know Taekwondo" that doesn't mean that the style is ineffective, because it is just as good as other styles, you just have to know how to use it correctly and also adapt to different situations.See More
    2 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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    Jan Oh and can you tell me what style you consider effective? lol
    2 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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    Anthony
    Well Jan this is just my opinion, it may not be true, or it may be true, and I really dont want to offend you. But many many martial artists and MMA Fighters don't practice TKD or don't use TKD for a reason. Again, this is just my opinion; ...TKD is for showcases. It consists of weak kicks and moves are easily predictable, so any experienced fighter can easily counter and come back from it. Many fighters who face TKD fighters are just all "Eh, easy win". I can't tell you what style I consider effective because one style can counteract the other, if your experienced. But combo styles are ALWAYS the best. Some beast styles are: Jiujitsu & Muay Thai, Kickboxing & Wrestling.See More
    38 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Jan lol well you obviously don't understand the meaning of taekwondo
    36 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Anthony TKD is for self defense - most of the time.
    36 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Jan Have you learned taekwondo before?
    33 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Anthony ‎4 monthes in TKD then stopped because either I didn't really like TKD or my instructor was really crappy.
    32 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Jan So do you consider Roundhouse Kick weak?
    32 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Jan Wait, let me try kicking you in the face tomorrow then tell me
    30 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Jan [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMoUaHIlu8Y"]YouTube - Taekwondo[/ame]

    Weak ****, huh
    29 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Anthony haha, the most "advanced" I ever got to a TKD move was a spinning backkick, but TKD moves can be easily countered and really predictable. I'll hook you up sometime this week with a sparring ring and I'll see how you do (if you want to, mb a saturday)
    29 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Jan Well in my school, we're taught not to attempt spinning or flashy moves in a street fight, we're only taught to use basic moves like punches, elbows, knees, and short kicks. Don't think that just cause Taekwondo appears to be what you see in videos that it's weak. Because we learn a variety of skills to use to defend ourselves, and that includes boxing, grappling and other moves from different styles.
    26 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Jan And if you think that MMA fighters dont learn taekwondo, you haven't seen one of the best: Idk if uve ever heard of Cung Le

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kItU8sK7jgg"]YouTube - Cung Le Killer Kicks Highlight[/ame]
    22 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Anthony I was gonna show you him. He's viet! :D but yeah he's one of the best in strykeforce MMA and needs to own in UFC
    21 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Anthony Cung Le is more kickboxing, but he puts some TKD into it. But the thing is, cung le is such a beast he will keep throwing kicks nonstop
    18 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Jan How can you tell if he's kickboxing or if he's using Taekwondo?
    Which part of the video is taekwondo?
    16 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Anthony His style is kickboxing.
    16 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Jan His style is also Taekwondo
    12 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Anthony word.
    12 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Jan Shall I demonstrate Taekwondo on you tomorrow?
    12 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Anthony No demonstrate TKD in the sparring ring sometime this week :p
    11 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
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    Jan Why not have it demonstrated with no restrictions or rules? I do enough of that at tournaments
    9 minutes ago · Like

    So I know I got a little angry and said stupid stuff but can anyone answer the question?
     
  2. Hatamoto

    Hatamoto Beardy Man Kenobi Supporter

    The problem isn't the style, but how it's usually taught. It's so hard to find high standard taekwondo among the majority of *thinks how to phrase it* more tournament centred fighting it misrepresents the art's potential.
     
  3. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Because most people judge based on sparring on the Olympics, don't understand what they're looking at, or compare thier local parents and kids club with UFC footgae they've seen.

    TKD works fine if you train it properly.

    Read through this thread.

    Mitch
     
  4. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Most people [wrongly] assume TKD is weak and ineffective because they're too lazy to get down to a dojang and actually train, basing their opinion entirely on crappy internet videos; and most people who put videos of YouTube are glory seekers demonstrating weak and ineffective techniques because they're too busy thinking about how their stuff looks rather than how it works. Rah.

    Rant over.
     
  5. Hatamoto

    Hatamoto Beardy Man Kenobi Supporter

    I don't do taekwondo (mostly due to cost and unfamiliarity with Korean (I'm used to Japanese and karate is a lot cheaper)) but it's the minority that sticks out in my mind. I've seen loads of crappy taekwondo, but it's the handful of videos that were incredibly awesome that come to mind first when I think of taekwondo. It must suck more for you guys but it saddens me when people rip on it as well. One day I'll take it up and help prove the haters wrong :p
     
  6. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    You think it's bad for us, imagine how the Ninjutsu community feels.
     
  7. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Deja vu. :)

    As always I disagree. A good instructor and student can overcome the short falls of TKD but I still think it's fundamentally flawed.
    Any art that proposes to teach a student how to defend themselves for real and yet has a bias towards kicking is flawed IMHO.
    Any art that proposes to excel at teaching kicking and yet leaves out kick catching and low kicks for the vast majority of its training is flawed IMHO.
    Any art that teaches a set of patterns that bear no relation to the sparring format that art uses is flawed IMHO (but then MANY arts are like that including my main one of Shidokan).

    It seems to me that many TKD schools are more concerned with teaching people how to do "TKD" rather than teaching people how to fight using TKD as the medium for those skills.

    At the end of the day take a random sampling of 10 TKD students and a random sampling of 10 Muay Thai, BJJ or MMA students and the TKD students would not fair very well in a real fight or a limited rules sparring match by comparison.

    Now bear in mind I've recently returned to training TKD but that's with the knowledge that I can, and have to some degree, patch up the failings of TKD with other stuff.
    It's still not something I'd recommend to someone else to do.
     
  8. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Not always but often
     
  9. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    At the risk of causing Smith a heart attack, I tend to agree with his comment. The only difference between us might be that I would use the "past" tense. I truely believe that TKD WAS fatally flawed. Even the late General CHOI Hong Hi reported that the practice of TKD was a good method of building fighting spirit and sound conditioning but that it needed to be cross-trained with, Hapkido to produce a more combat worthy result. And it certainly did not help how folks marketed the TKD material (see: Three Kingdoms Period) nor did the split between the ITF and WTF help. (Will say, however, that the split between the two organizations helped to underscore the basic flaws to which I am referring.) The problems were only exaccerbated by the bidding efforts to get competitive TKD into the Olympics. All that said, there have been some shifts.

    a.) First off, I think that the influence of KYOKUSHIN Karate competition as well as other full-contact venues have caused (some) Koreans to rethink TKD. In this way I see (some) Korean TKD shifting towards a reincarnation as a kind of "Korean Kick-boxing), if you will.

    b.) Secondly, there seem to be a growing number of TKD folks who have sought to enhance the HO SHIN SUL side of their practice with throws, locks and takedowns so as to produce a more combat-worth or self-defense-worth result. YONG-IN University has been playing at providing multiple ratings in TKD, HKD, SSIREUM, YUDO etc etc for a few decades now.

    3.) Thirdly, I am getting the impression that the idea of "one-size-fits-all" TKD may be going the way of the 8-track tape. I first noticed this just before General Choi's death when there was much suggestion of some sort of reconciliation between the ITF and WTF on his passing. Of course, this never occurred, but its seems to have more strongly delineated the differences in the nature of the two. The WTF seems to continue to champion the "family oriented", "after school activity" and "competition goals" values. The ITF seems to be a bit more "hardcore" as it were. Of course, these are only opinions. YMMV.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  10. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    If you take away the ridiculously restrictive rule set, the patterns, the one steps, the suicidal knife defences and just focus on pugilism and sparring then it will be just as good as most kickboxing.

    As it stands most TKD that I have seen or trained cannot compare to other striking styles out there as a stand alone art.

    2 years ago I went along to a TKD dojang with a view to joining up. I needed to get back into training after a year long lay off, had done some TKD as a kid and this place was convenient so I went with an open mind. It was ITF.
    I sparred with their black belts and not one of them could deal with their kicks being checked (I was abusing the rule set slightly I admit but I refuse to block kicks with my hands at mid level) or someone getting inside and punching them in the head. They relied on a hop-about chambered leg offence that would get them murdered if we were using low line kicks. Most of their arsenal was born of a tap sparring ruleset and you could just walk right through it.

    The above is not me attempting to big myself up (I am an average kickboxer at best) but it is supposed to highlight my point that if more time was spent advancing foundational pugilistic skills in a more permissive sparring rule set then the problems I have listed would either be entirely absent or at the very least minimised (they would be a personal problem of the student rather than a systemic problem of TKD).

    To echo Bruce's post above the more people start to look to kyokushin etc the better TKD will become. Which is pretty much what Mitch is doing and I bet his more dedicated students that embrace his approach are better for it, and better than your 'average' TKD exponant.

    EDIT - If memory serves me, Van Zandt has also taken a similar approach to his training/teaching. So that's two of the most reputable TKD practitioners on this board... which in itself should be very telling.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2010
  11. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    to be honest this just reads like the stereotypical argument that always happens when someone says something like that on a youtube.

    Tbh, mitch and them know my view point on it and I'll stand by it. I think they'll even agree with me somewhat when i point out that people who train TKD the way mitch claims to are in the 0.0001% of all people who actually train TKD.

    Bottom line as I see it is that TKD is what the majority of it's practitioners think it as and that means that TKD doesnt know how to box, knee, elbow, kick low etc. The fact that there are some schools out there that do train this or that it was originallz meant to include these doesnt change the fact that what it is now, doesn't work.

    It's no coincidence that if the subject of K1 comes up, everyone points to Serkan Yilmaz. Ignoring the fact that the guy has never made it o the final 8 and just isn't that good, he is, in fact, the ONLY guy in K1 MAX who fights using TKD. There may be more in the Grand Prix but it's no secret that K1 MAX is by far more technical.

    The same is said whenever MMA comes up. They always talk about Cung Le. The arguments for this guy virtually mirror those of Serkan Yilmaz and K1. Sure there are a bunch of MMA guys who've done TKD. Of all americans who do martial arts, id say most of em at some point have done some form of TKD. its the most popular martial art in america. But the facts and numbers again point to the trend that the vast VAST majority of people who fight under any sort of mixed styles set, whether its mma or just striking, dont use TKD as they're fighting style.

    now, I've never seen mitch's training or sparrign etc but from what he tells me it sounds decent and like it would prepare someone for a fight, either in the ring or out. But personally, since the vast majority of TKD guys DONT train it that way and have a completely different idea of what TKD is then I think we've found the root of the problem.
     
  12. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    They deserve everything they get :hat:
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2010
  13. Bigmikey

    Bigmikey Internet Pacifist.

    Man, those stinkin tae kwon do clowns with their weak, fluffy, girlie kicks and the stupid bowing all the time. They think they're so bad but they aint nothing but show. I could kick their butts with my eyes closed. Stupid Tae Kwon Do window-lick..... oh wait a minute.... I forgot I practice TKD.... ummm, nevermind.... oh LOOK! CAKE! *runs off to hide while everyone else is distracted by imaginary cake*




    Seriously though, in all honesty, I think there are elements to TKD that most laymen are exposed to that, if not properly understood, make TKD seem fluffy and less testosterony (yes, thats a word... cause I said so), than say Okinawan Goju or shotokan. But nearly all styles have an element of "art" to them that isnt linear, hard or completely masculine. And it doesnt have to be.

    I had a buddy the first time I studied TKD that used to make fun of crescent kicks. "Why would you try that in a fight", "Man that looks gay".... one day, out of sheer frustration I clocked him with one in an accidental tribute to Billy Jack, lol. He didn't make fun of them much after that.

    It's easy to judge when you are ignorant of the truth, but a little enlightenment often goes a long way. :)

    Now I'm gonna go make fun of those stupid hapkido retards....
     
  14. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    There are about ten sound, combat-worthy kicks in the TKD catalog. My vote is that if the art of TKD focused exclusively on those ten-or-so kicks with an eye towards sound timing, proximity (aka: "combat distance") and focus, things would bode much better for them. My frame of reference (once again) is KYOKUSHIN Karate and reflection on the various full-contact championships. When I see a well-placed RH Kick to the floating ribs or a perfectly timed Spinkick cancel a person's check, I can accept that as a combat-worthy technique. By comparison, a poorly timed Axe Kick or any of a score of aerial kicks may strike fear into the hearts of any common stack of boards, but it pretty much ends there---IMHO.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  15. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Why do people feel the need to impose their rulesets on other arts? TKD is weak against leg kicks - so? I bet a lot of people who train in TKD aren't interested in leg kicks. That doesn't mean their art or reasons for training are any less valid than other arts or practitioners which do incorporate leg kicks. I enjoy TKD because I never liked getting kicked in the legs in the first place, the sparring is fun (which is why I started training in the first place) and I can't train with leg kicks now anyway because of my hip replacement. So it's perfectly valid as a way of training for me.

    Isn't it time we stopped the dick swinging contest?
     
  16. Bigmikey

    Bigmikey Internet Pacifist.


    Agreed. Although I will say that an axe kick or a tornado kick can be used as tools in a fight but you better be sure you're going to use them effectively or else its game over. I look at them as finishing moves. Kind of like light dumbell flies are most effective after heavy bench and worthless before, a fancy kick is NOT what you want to come out of the shoot with but it can hammer the last nail in the coffin rather effectively.
     
  17. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    As an aside - anyone who thinks TKD fails in the "open" arena should look at last year's Clash of the Titans event when the TAGB smashed all comers.
     
  18. Bigmikey

    Bigmikey Internet Pacifist.

    Crap, if its a CONTEST I'm screwed....
     
  19. Bigmikey

    Bigmikey Internet Pacifist.

    LOL, so this is how the Christians felt back in Rome...
     
  20. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I think we also have to be very careful to compare apples with apples. The dad doing TKD twice a week with his kids doesn't look like an MMA fighter? Well, no surprise there. Were he to train to fight in MMA then his TKD would look a lot like generic kickboxing/stand up striking.

    Many clubs have changed over time to offer a very limited ruleset which appeals to a very wide range of practicioners because of those very limitations.

    There is no reason why that trend might not be reversed, broadening the ruleset again. Here's hoping eh?

    Mitch
     
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