Why is it you don't see Kajukenbo or kenpo/kempo in MMA?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Bubble99, Apr 12, 2016.

  1. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    Why is it you don't see Kajukenbo or kenpo/kempo in MMA?

    ‪Kenpo Karate‬
    https://youtu.be/esbYyTegDCo

    And you don't see ‪Lima Lama‬/Limalama

    https://youtu.be/pUVy0ANXvKo

    https://youtu.be/KejfmgEYOL8


    A guy was telling me is Kajukenbo, kenpo/kempo and ‪Lima Lama‬/Limalama are close range fighting and self defense oriented. Most of moves would be illegal in MMA.

    And saying boxer and MMA people work at a different fighting range so these people would get knocked out because of longer fighting range!! Also boxer and MMA people have way to come in and hit you than move back than come in and hit you and move back again so on.


    Kajukenbo and ‪Lima Lama‬/Limalama normally more flashy moves and higher kicks. where as kenpo/kempo where for people that don't know how to kick have lower kick moves.

    But are more close range fighting and more for self defense oriented not see in MMA.What he tells me.

    Also for some strange reason Kajukenbo, kenpo/kempo and ‪Lima Lama‬/Limalama are more popular in south west US than the south east US for some strange reason. I don't know why that the case??
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Frank Mir is a kempo black belt.
     
  3. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Chuck Liddell was a Kempo practitioner. Take a look at his tattoo.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    You do - people just don't know what they are seeing
     
  5. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    I did not know that.
     
  6. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    Basically when people say something like this, it means one of two things:

    • Their system is either entirely composed of techniques such as eye gouging, fish hooking, groin kicking, wrist and finger locks, i.e. almost no conventional striking, throwing, locking, groundwork, and so on, or
    • They're making excuses as to why their style's practitioners would not perform well but they don't want to outright admit that it's because they're not training in an optimised style for fighting a trained opponent in an unarmoured/unarmed contest
    There's nothing wrong with training in a system that's not designed for MMA contests or for not gearing yourself up for such contests, but people do need to be honest about that rather than making excuses about all their best moves being illegal (any such moves are, of course, banned for the opponent as well, remember).
     
  7. kuntaoer

    kuntaoer Valued Member

    Does anyone remember the name keith hackney from the first few UFC matches? He is a kenpo blackbelt who knocked down Manny Yarborugh with a ridge hand.. Manny Yarborough was a sumo wrestler who also fought in the first few mma matches.. Kenpo and kajukenbo have been practicing the MMA concept and mindset even before the UFC became a way of life for those individuals so inclined..
     
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Who is telling you this stuff? If the guy is a Kajukenbo black belt, he should be on the family tree and I can look him up or at least his instructor. I don't know much about limalama, so can't really comment there. For American Kenpo, I've got some experience, but I'll stick discussing Kajukenbo.

    If we look at the founding arts in Kajukenbo (established 1947-1949) we can see that Kajukenbo is a mix of different martial arts. The five founding members of Kajukenbo were:

    Adriano Emperado — Kenpo (Kosho Ryu) and Eskrima
    Joseph Holck — Judo and Danzan Ryu Jujutsu
    Peter Young Yil Choo — Tang Soo Do Korean Karate and Boxing
    Frank F. Ordonez — Danzan Ryu Jujutsu
    Clarence Chang — Sil-Lum Pai Kung Fu

    We could say that Kajukenbo is street-based MMA and something like UFC is sport-based MMA. What this means comes down to efficiency and use of time. If Kajukenbo is basically no-nonsense, then time spent is focused on "the streets". If MMA is basically no-nonsense, then time spent is focused on "the sport".

    For Kajukenbo to transition to sport MMA, take a look at this lineage:

    Sijo Adriano Emperado (Founder of Kajukenbo, with the four other co-founders. The art was orignally called Kenpo Karate until some time in the 1950s I think, although it could have been as early as 1949-1950 even though I think the name came later.)
    |
    Professor Walter Godin (used the old name, Kenpo Karate)
    |
    John Hackleman (former boxer, called the art Hawaiian Kempo in 1985)
    |
    Chuck Liddell (former UFC champion)

    John Hackleman founded the Pit in 1986. The Pit is a professional mixed martial arts association and training camp.

    So if you are looking for Kajukenbo in MMA, look for Kajukenbo schools that are training for sport-based MMA to do the best in that area.

    If you are looking for Kajukenbo in the streets, look for kajukenbo schools that are training for street-based MMA to do the best in that area.

    Keep in mind I'm carefully choosing my words to indicate that MMA training methods are probably the best in both cases, whether street-based MMA or sport-based MMA.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2016
  9. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    If eye gouging is a Kempo move, then Chuck Kempo'd his way to a UFC title...
     
  10. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    :eek::eek::eek:

    I think because lot of the schools are turning into McDojo or schools for kids and that why lot people are not taking it seriously.

    Kajukenbo or kenpo/kempo seem more popular in southeast US than the south eat US. And some of the schools look McDojo or for kids . I think that is why people are not taking it seriously.

    They look like schools for kids :bang::bang: not for older people or people in MMA.

    :bang::bang:

    **
    Kenpo school
    1. Miami school. What do you see, kids and Ninjas program for kids!!

    http://academyofkenpokarate.com/

    http://www.yelp.com/biz/kenpo-karate-academy-miami-2

    **
    2.
    Other Kenpo school


    Kenpo School Just out side of Houston.

    Kids and camp!!
    http://www.modernamericanwarrior.com/


    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuVE-q_R2kQvwYIX3PN6cvA/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=0

    **
    3. Kenpo school in Houston

    Kids and people doing forms
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/jdog-PKKA/166440010069626

    http://www.martialartsstudiohouston.com/


    **
    4.Kenpo school in Tucson.


    wow, just wow, it seems more Judo and BJJ.

    And more kids!!

    http://www.boxersrebellion.net/

    https://www.facebook.com/Boxers-Rebellion-Martial-Arts-199419900096106/


    **

    5. Kenpo school in Houston.

    Seems to be he into private training for the police.

    And Defensive Tactics!!
    http://www.kenpoconsulting.com/index.html

    **

    6. Kajukenbo in Tucson

    Very little on their page about their program.

    https://www.facebook.com/Tucson-Kajukenbo-111417985562250/

    **

    Other Kajukenbo in Tucson.

    7. Wow they call this Kajukenbo

    ALl I see is throws, take downs and wrist locks.

    http://www.kmaadojo.com/#!courses/cq0a

    http://www.kmaadojo.com/#!kajukenbo/cgx9

    https://youtu.be/gBed8IieI9Y

    https://youtu.be/RuEaxf2YAuM

    This is not Kajukenbo

    **
     
  11. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    By that logic, then Jon Jones is a Kenpo master!:eek::evil:
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Are you addressing my post or answering your own question, "Why is it you don't see Kajukenbo or kenpo/kempo in MMA?"

    I believe you are answering your own question and if so, wresting, Judo, BJJ, boxing, for starters all have schools and competitions tailored to teenagers and younger. If you go the route that the problem is schools look like they are for kids and not serious, where does that leave sport-based martial arts? They can be for kids and are to some extent still serious yet fun.

    On the other hand, I'll bring up a different reason but related to what you said. The problem is over-engineering. This makes some martial technique and application very complex. When something is very complex, the only way to break it down for kids is to water it down significantly.

    For example, American Kenpo has somewhere around or over 2000 techniques to learn. Such things as striking vital areas and pressure points and a whole lot of "fast hands". If this is turned into something for kids, it has to be simplified and in doing so it gets watered down as details get taken out.

    Conversely, boxing generally doesn't get overly complex. When taking boxing and making it for kids, it gets slightly watered down but not so much it loses its effectiveness.

    So things that are very complex don't do well when tailored for kids. Most sport-based martial arts never forget to keep things simple, stay with the fundamentals; therefore, they still can be effective when taught to kids.

    Kajukenbo can get very complex, but as long as the roots, fundamentals are kept simple, it stays effective. I call the foundation of Kajukenbo "cave man/woman martial arts". The most basic premise is to first learn how to do the most damage in the least amount of time to the enemy. This requires not just conditioning how to hit hard but also learning where and how to hit to always make it hurt. As long as this simple foundation isn't forgotten, it is Kajukenbo to me. Everything on top of this is add on.


    Go visit the schools in person. The heart of Kajukenbo is Ohana (Family). If it isn't Kajukenbo, the only way to know is face-to-face. IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2016
  13. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    It's the same argument that I hate with a lot of KF /TMA schools arguing how they can't follow the rules for MMA.
    Which has since been debunked by the likes of Wonderboy/Machida/Pettis/Nelson.
    (in a striking sense...grappling will be a different story ie - go find a catch gym)

    Its not hard to turn a spearhand strike into a closed fist punch. Or an eagle claw to the eyes, also just as a punch.

    Groin kicks....do it once. Be warned. And carry on, knowing that the other guy will still be suffering the wobbly legs as you rush through. (um.....in theory of course) :p
     
  14. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    The reason you don't see the type of combat manoeuvres displayed in the links you posted or the arts you listed manifested in that fashion in MMA is because that doesn't actually work/function in any environment other than demonstrations and movies and is therefore not fit for purpose.
     
  15. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member


    Well there may be number of people with Kenpo or Kajukenbo in MMA they probably not train in schools I posted in my second post.

    Too many martial arts schools have turn into McDojo or school for kids.

    Too much time of people striking air, little to no sparring and too much time doing forms and kata.

    Where are the pictures and videos on their web site on the Adult class?:dunno: Probably why a lot people don't take it serious.

    I'm sure Chuck Liddell would not train at any of these schools I posted in my second post they look like schools for kids.
     
  16. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    The Pit has an extensive kids programme.
     
  17. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Not for nothing but as we are on the subject of chuck liddel and kenpo/kaju in MMA; chuck is a proficient wrestler and then BJJ purple belt who stated in an interview (2005 ish) that he had to drastically alter his methods of striking for success in MMA coming from Hawaiian kenpo. What he actually meant is anyone's guess, however.

    While I have seen great kajukenbo the problem with much of kenpo is that it suffers from the same issues a great deal of 'trad' arts do whilst acting as the creative fertiliser for Enter The Dojo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2016
  18. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Frank trained in that as a teenager in his fathers school how much he used that in MMA is debatable, most of his first wins were submissions he only started having a good striking base after his crash and when he started doing boxing.

    Using Mir as an example of good kempo in MMA is like using dan hardy as a good example of shaolin kung fu.

    When I normally see the too deadly argument or too restrictive I tend to think what they actually mean is that they cant handle the pressure testing environment of the cage or the ring because they don’t train enough under pressure

    Its telling liddel was the only high level guy to come out of the pit, and the kempo stuff he did use was basically an overhand right and long hook punches, which kempo borrowed from CLF which was one of the few Chinese arts pressure tested and which continues to pressure test…Oh and as already pointed out he was also a stand out wrestler and athletic freak
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    ^^^This pretty much sums it up.

    Wasn't the too deadly to train under pressure debate going on when Kanō Jigorō founded Judo in 1882? That's more than 130 years ago. An even so, isn't the root of the debate not around effectiveness but around time spent to be effective.

    For example, a story told to me from one of my "uncles" taking place in the 1930s on the docks of some pier in California. A immigrant from Japan, who happened to be a Judo champion back in Japan, was working on the docks and got in a fight with another worker (from the Philippines). The other guy used a knife in a way that the Judo guy was not used to. Eventually the Judo guy got a hold and broke the other guy's arm, and then choked him out. After the fight he told my "uncle" that the fight took too long. Had the other guy come down with a downward (ice pick style) knife attack, he would have been able to end the fight quicker.

    Was the Judo guy saying that he wasted time in Judo because the other guy never attacked with a downward knife slash? I don't believe that is what was the point. I think the point was the fight took too long and the next step was the Judo guy figuring out why. Finally, moving on to a solution for it.

    I think we can get caught in the weeds on trying to figure out why a martial art is not represented in MMA (or for that matter, why we don't see Sumo wrestlers competing in world-class equestrian activities). It doesn't matter the activity, first comes DOING it. Getting experience under pressure in the environment, then comes the assessment of the problem (e.g., did it take too long, was the outcome favorable?), then comes the evaluation and analysis (e.g., why did it take too long, why did the outcome end up the way it did?).

    I think when we look at a starting point, for example Hawaiian Kempo, and then look at the end point, say Chuck Liddell as just a linear progression, what we end up with is a misleading cause and effect scenario. When really, the figthter (i.e., Chuck Liddell) should not be an end point and the martial art (Hawaiian Kempo) should not be the other end point. Instead, look at the process of what Chuck Liddell did to be successful and so look at both the fighter and the martial art as being evolving/adapting.
     
  20. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    It appears it is Kenpo Taijutsu and the other school appears jutsu.

    Spring, Texas out side of Houston.

    http://www.kenpokaratedojo.com/index.cfm?

    That probably why it looks different. More jutsu base.

    What I mean is most schools lack good sparring and adult class. Some schools have two class one for kids and other for Adult. But too many schools turning in for schools for kids.
     

Share This Page