Hey, I'm a Christian, a baptist to be more precise. I go to a relatively LARGE baptist church, and attend their (100+ kids and growing) youth program. Even with that many people, our church, and our youth program, is organized as: Church Senior Pastor Church Junior Pastor (I guess that's what you call him) and Church Youth Pastor Then we have jobs and stuff for people, like the people that take the offering and play music on the worship team.. But my question is, why is the rest of Christianity organized in a heirarchy? No where in the bible does it say that there has to be a (for example) Pope. I don't understand why denominations, especially Catholicism, have such a heirarchy-like church structure? And preists and stuff, why have those? The bible doesn't say you need a preist, nor does it say anywhere that you have to go to a confession to be forgiven of your sins. (Just questioning the Catholic Church here), but in numerous places throughout the bible it says that you can just pray to God for forgiveness after accepting His Son and you are forgiven...why go confess it to some old guy? Is he the only guy who has privileges to talk to God? One more question about Catholicism though that isn't related to organization...how can they call themselves Christians when they believe that a person can get into heaven doing good deeds? You know the whole "I am the truth, the way and the light, and no one gets to the Father but through me thing?" (not quoted exactly)...things like that throughout the bible say that you cannot get into heaven yourself... But my main question is about the organization of the church...why? Thanks for your time everyone.
I stopped going to church a long time ago (although I still believe in God). Too much BS. I used to be a Catholic, if it matters. I think the heirarchy here works similarly to the heirarchies in McDojos. "Senior instructor" "Junior instructor" "instructor assistant" etc. Just a way to make those people feel like what they are doing isn't a waste of time, because they hold a position of "power". Do you really need it in order to worship God or learn martial arts? PL
I believe that's also a reason young people join gangs. They want the heirarchy because that's the only place they can get some power. Beyond their control a lot of the time, but it happens. PL
Get and read any book on church history. Some denominations have a hierarchical, top down structure. Some have a congregational, bottom up structure. There's a third structure that I'm presently forgetting. All are good, all are bad, and all of them were used and set up in the era of the Apostles. The idea of confessing to a priest comes from the New Testament -- there's a verse specifically promoting the idea.
Read this: http://www.prismagems.com/castaneda/donjuan1.html Summing up: Fear, clarity, power and old age. Not necessarily in the order Castaneda described but all of them are common problems that affect the human mind. Christianity reproduces all of them: keeps their followers in the fear of God, when you think that you have found him (clarity) you develop a sense of power and when you realise that you haven't really found him you are too old and unfortunately you're still trapped in Samsara. My advice: stay away from organised Religion.
I'm christian too.But I think it is more about a relationship throught the holy spirit,and religion is something you worship like your boyfriend, car,job,etc.etc.etc.
The catholic-type power structure really began when emperor Constantine turned christian. As the roman empire collapsed the roman catholic church remained and took it's model from that. The history of the catholic church is very long, complicated, bloody and shrouded in mystery. All other power structures essentially derive from the reformation, when intellectuals began to question the right of the pope to govern all men's spirituality. Men like Luther led a big rebellion which placed the bible at the head of the christian faith as opposed to the Pope. Thus developing the idea of a one-on-one reltionship with God. But in time even the newer churches got bogged down with hierachy.
pretendingtodie, I am Catholic (even though I don't get to practice it as much anymore), and I take some small offence that you don't include us Catholics in the Christian group. Small because I find that you have fallen victim to an arrogant prejudice. Now for my comments... Simple really. All organizations need some sort of power structure. Hence the secular aspect of religion. You even admit that yours has one: I think you also have a deacon there somewhere. Priests are considered as the physical representation of God on this earth. That is why according to the sacraments, they are said to assume the responsibilities of Christ and live like him. Confessing sins to some old guy may also help a devotee because he or she is speaking with a real live person. It is like saying that although you have no knowledge of Christ, Heaven's doors are open because you are doing what he taught in the first place. In this sense you are said to "believe in Him" because you live out His principles. This is also the reason why according to this belief even the true non-Christians (Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, etc.) have a place in Christ's Heaven. Isn't Jesus great! Then why do you hold service with a pastor? For a protestant, you are looking at the Bible too literally. By the way, you forgot to mention the Eastern orthodox. It is as old as the Roman Catholic church and has nearly the same heirarchy. Everyone who believes Christ and considers Christ as a focal point in their religion are Christians. Whether they are Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, or whatever. Although I'm not entirely sure about that religion Henry VIII started.
Not all denominations are strictly hierarchical. Take Quakerism for example, it tends to be very non-hierarchical with any major "leadership" type positions being voted on by the ocngregation and rotated on a regualr basis. The basic idea being that the individual develops a relationship with God and there is no need for an intermediary (priest, minister, pastor, etc.) to do that for the individual. There are other sects of Christianity with similar outlooks, though I know less about them. peace, Erik
wwwwwhat? I've been taught that the only way into heaven is to accept the fact that Christ died for you, as the punishment for your sins. How can being a good person get you there? In the end, no matter how hard you try, you sin and are therefore a sinner...and cannot enter heaven unless you know Christ. ""For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." - Romans 3:23" Yea, following his teachings are how one gets into heaven like you said..."Living out his principles"...but his main principle was that he is the only way to the Father. I do not believe that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, etc. go to heaven for this reason, unless they have somehow estabolished a relationship with Christ, in which case they are truly Christians! Good deeds; loving one's neighbor and such, cannot get you into heaven without knowing the Lord Himself. Again, just my thoughts. :Angel:
One more thing about the structure of the church: If you're going to have a religion, you need some kind of official doctrine. A heirarchy provides a way for that doctrine to be firmly established and spread through the church. I don't know why people always assume that their has to be something nefarious about a hierarchy. The fact is, it's necessary to establish uniformity in beliefs. Just look at religions, like buddhism, that don't have a firm established hierarchy. There are about a billion different variations, all of which are quite different. The same thing was happening to Christianity in the days before the first vatican councils. Local traditions and legends were popping up that had little to do with any of the plausible gospels (the ones written within living memory of Jesus) or any of the letters. New gospels were being written, after 200 AD that were only loosely based on older doctrine. A hierarchy allowed for establishment of a consistant doctrine, which filtered out most of the material that the early councils thought to be questionable.
I wish it would be as simple as the Bible says. Just before you die accept God and enter the kingdom of God. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Why? First of all I wouldn't rely too much on the Bible as its entirity has been manipulated by the Catholic church following vested interests. Secondly, when you become advanced in meditation (I am not the most qualified here to say that because I don't like to give the impression that I am a guru, I am just a humble apprentice) you'll realise that you'll be becoming purer and purer, liberating yourself from suffering and trascending karma (if this is your time) and material attachment. Eventually you become enlightened (Vimutti Sukha). Let me quote something here: No Religion - Buddhadasa Bhikkhu Those who have penetrated to the essential nature of religion will regard all religions as being the same. Although they may say there is Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, Islam, or whatever, they will also say that all religious are inwardly the same. However, those who have penetrated to the highest understanding of Dhamma will feel that the thing called "religion" simply doesn't exist at all. There is no Buddhism; there is no Christianity and there is no Islam. How can they be the same or in conflict when they don't even exist? It just isn't possible. Thus, the phrase "no religion!" is actually Dhamma language of the highest level. Whether it will be understood or not is something else, depending upon the listener, and has nothing to do with the truth or with religion. This link explains well the essence of Buddhist thought: http://www.vipassana.com/resources/dharmapala/an8.php Regards,
And we should take your word for this, why? Because you quoted two websites. . . yeah, those things are usually reliable.
The information offered in those websites are credible because they are as a result of millenary meditation. Personally, I am experiencing the similar process because I also meditate (daily). Hope this is enough.
... ...but the bible doesn't say to do that... It says to accept Christ died for you, and live your life for him... Sadly lots of people do believe what you have just stated and believe that they can just "put it off" . And as to the manipulation of the bible, there's a thread somewhere on this site under the philosophy section where it's explained how the bible cannot have been altered on such a grand scale because of the manner in which is came about and was spread... What you are reading is the real deal. I'll look for that thread later, when I have more time (Gotta go to Hapkido in a few minutes )
Man I'm telling you something here: The more proficient you become at meditation, and therefore spiritually developed, and following a life of virtue the less you are interested in Jesus, Buddha, the Virgin Mary, Dalai Lama, Hendrix or your next door neighbour (sorry for joking ). I mean you start to trascend this reality. I know very advanced adepts who feel that way and I understand them since they have been practising the Way for over 30 years.
Can you explain what meditation means to you? It will help me understand what you are trying to achieve through it. Cheers, Wali
