Why if I study karate and I get beat does karate suck?

I don't think there's as big a difference between ring fights and street fights as you think there is.

Yes, but when the crap hits the fan you need to know how to fight. That does depend on the art to a considerable extent.

 

About ten years ago an Olympic TKD friend of mine entered a light contact point tournament, and wound up losing, because he broke his opponent's nose. I told him, "That's the way I wanna lose."

That's the way most MMA fighters would lose as well. MMA fighters hit hard, because that's how they train, and it's hard to turn it off. In contrast, if you train light, it's hard to turn it on.

So although most MMA fighters would lose at most style-specific competitions, the other arts most certainly would not enjoy winning.

 

To me boxing is sparring, full contact thai is sparring, UFC is sparring. I think we define sparring differently. To me, any rules impossed make it sparring, on the 'street' there are no rules. You might be trying to knock someone out but you won't try and achive that by banging their hard against a brick wall (happened to a friend of mine in a street fight) There are guidelines.

Don't get me wrong, I think MMA training is pretty good for self defence but that not what its purpose is ultimately. You get some excelent karate practitioners who are superb at self defence, Geoff Thompson, Peter Consterdine, Russel Stutely, Ian Aberstly(can't think how to spell his name! lol) all received (are receivng) much of their training from karate.


Fair point Tommy Boy, thats certainly true. But IMO opinion there are people who are pretty good in a gym but go to pieces if confronted in a 'street' situation. I was like that, still am a bit. I find Geoff Thompson goes into the mental aspect very well and I'd say reading a few of his books are worth six months of Martial training from a self defence point of view!

 

whats with writing "bang" in the middle of comments?

MMA's isn't the pure electicism that it claims to be ... it is BBJ/Kickboxing/Wrestling ... people think these arts are the best ... disguising this claim as pragmatism ... because of their successful use in ringfighting. They are designed for ringfighting. The best arts I have seen can't be used in a ring because they are too dangerous ... I know people think this is a cop out, but its true. I have sparred in competitions etc, with Taekwondo [competitively], Boxing, Kickboxing [not competitively]... I have also been knocked unconscious by a relatively light strike to the neck, been completely disabled in seconds by an arm lock incorporating pressure to nerve endings, had my arm put to sleep by a strike to the wrist of my punching hand ... and all of these people ... all of them [from Silat, Kung-Fu, Taiji, Aikijitsu, Taijutsu] abhored ringfighting, and would never ... not in a million years ... enter a competition.

 

It works both ways. If Bruce Lee studied Karate for a year, you might end up with the impression that it's a great martial art. If I chose someone from the sidewalk here and taught them JKD for three years and you might end up thinking it was a useless MA.

That being said, some arts are better than others. I couldn't say definitively which ones. I personally don't like most of what I know about Karate and Tae Kwon Do. In fact, I don't like hard styles much, I have the impression that they are too linear, leave you with bruises after a fight (because you forcefully block rather than sidestep or redirect most attacks), tire you out faster than the soft styles, and lead to a higher correlation between strength and sucess than is found in mixed or soft styles.
I think you should judge a Martial Art by what it focuses on (what ranges you learn to fight in, presence of grappling, groundwork, punches, kicks, other strikes, sweeps, throws, blocks, locks, redirects, position, energy), it's philosophies, how it is taught and practiced, and by the situations you need to be prepared for and your own strengths, weaknesses, and tendancies (your body type, striking range and comfort, types of fighting you feel suited to). You should try a MA for a while.

Your Sensei makes a bigger difference than just about anything else, except maybe your choice of martial art. I believe in training with a heavy focus on sparring, including, at least occaisionally, a range of conditions. I would only trust a martial art if its practitioners don't mind butting heads against artists from other styles

 

There are some karateka who are very good fighters. Andy Hug was pretty good in k1 and he came from a kyokushin background.

 

I was joking

 

the hardest out of the two,some mantis and other TMA fighters were rock solid even before MA.

 

Right heres my opinion.
Its NOTHING to do with the style, its NOTHING to do with the practitioner.
You have to look at training methods.
Lets look at a full contact style, and compare it to a typical TMA.

So, say in Muay thai or boxing gym X.
You go in, go for a jog or skip for a bit, if your a beginner, you learn a technique or two, which you then pile onto the bag or pads. Then, you do some full contact sparring. For this you learn some hidden skills, like not flinching when you get punched, taking a bit of pain etc. These are key.

And then we go to traditional MA Z.
You start off, maybe run around the room a few times. After that, you do drills of techniques up and down the room, while adopting certain stances in between, getting the technique right, then some forms. You do that for 3 quarters of the lesson say. After that then, you do some sparring.
Its semi-contact, so you make the point that you could have punched them but actually dont. Just tap em. There is no longer the fear, the pain, there is nothing remotely like a fight situation at all.

People say that the full contact MAs are a lot more effective (not talking about rules anywhere in this post ok). From the analysis above, yes.

But mix them both up.
So now, in the TMA class you got running for a little bit to warm up, you get taught a technique by doing drills, then, you go on the bag for a bit practicing these techniques. You then go into full contact sparring, using whatever moves youve learnt from that MA you choose.

Suddenly, the gap between the TMA and full contact closes a LOT, yet, its still the same art, still the same moves, just train differently.

sparring is the key.
Somebody who goes out and picks a fight every night of his life is going to be one hard bugar. We dont do that in MA obviously, so full contact sparring is the next best thing, and TMAs seem to neglect that a LOT.

Bag work and strength is also a big factor that TMAers tend to ignore. You say if you get the technique perfect then it will work, yet boxers can punch twice as hard as any karateka who has perfect technique, because they have the muscles, Mix in the technique AND the muscles and you may have something.

Im going a bit off point now, but you see what im getting at anyways.

 

Muay Thai and boxing are traditional martial arts.

 

You know what i mean. Im talking about the arts that are considered incredibly effective like MMA, Boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ etc. Yet i didnt want to include the MMA BJJ gyms because then you got the variable of groundfighting.

 

I think your argument is basically good; people who train harder fight better, regardless of style. But, I think you'll find that "arts that are considered incredibly effective" varies depending upon who you're talking to.

AS you said:

but then you went on to turn it into TMA vs MMA.

I personally would be terrified of fighting a thai boxer, not because their style is any better than mine, but because they've probably done a heck of a lot more press-ups than I have!

 

I went onto compare the TMA vs MMA because, well, this is what every argument seems to be about. And theres nothing else to compare really.

 

I'd just debate whether you can group BJJ, boxing and Thai boxing into one "category". That's just an artificial category created by the MMAers around here who group things into "styles we like" and "styles we don't"

 

I have heard and belive that there are thousands of arts that have there posotives and negatives and Yes some are better than others yet no martial arts suck ( if u want to put it that way ) but it's how the person interperates the art and makes it work !

 

The man makes the style, not vice versa.

 

I think you should watch THIS before putting down Karate.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA7J4HtJY4g"]YouTube[/ame]

Enjoy.

I know I did.

 

I think this is BS. Muay Thai practitioners are freakin' brutal. Ringfighting or not, they'd kick plenty of ass.

Also, are you saying Muhammad Ali could never have fought out on 'the street' because he was in competition? He would have whooped plenty of people I'm sure.

 

The problem with the line of thought: "it is the training methodology, not the style" Is that certain styles have certain training methods that are inseperable from the style itself. It's always been this way also, not really a difference of schools or individuals.

Take Judo and Aikido. (leave the style bashing at the door, that's not my intent) Judo was founded on training safe techniques in an alive manner. Kano decided (way before straight blast gym, mind you) that you get better, faster, by training safe techniques full bore.

Aikido took a different stance. They dont train alive, per se. They have a different training methodology. They train wristlocks and throws that are claimed to be too dangerous to train full bore. So instead of going the route of Judo, they went a different way. (yes, I know O' sensei was a bad-ass) Judo and aikido schools still train pretty much the same now, as they did then.

This is just an example of how style does seem to have an effect on training methods, as it is often the training method that makes the style.

 

You forgot this one my good man.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1274302017525395825

I personally think we should lock up all those crazy-ass kyokushin practioners in mental asylums.

*door creaks open revealing a middle aged asian man wearing dirty old gi, his face covered in shadow*
*Startled Captain Karate swivels around on his leather chair closing his laptops screen onto the keyboard*

Captain Karate: "Oh Mr. Oyama it's you... I was just commenting on err.. how good... "

*Frustrated Mas Oyama punches a clean hole through Captain Karate*