Why if I study karate and I get beat does karate suck?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by INTERNAL BOXING, Jan 17, 2005.

  1. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    See, this means there's a fundimental difference in technique. In boxing, thrusting forward doesn't cause your heel to be lifted off the ground, you're actively pushing up with your ankle. The ankle actually generates a large portion of the power that goes into the cross, like when you jump rope. No matter how flexible you are, you *want* your heel to leave the ground, because pushing up and forward with your ankle actively throws your body into your opponent. It's also partially responsible for the lean I talked about.

    So basically, the only part you disagree with me about is chambering punches, to which I would say, years of chambering my punches in katas/forms/etc. has made it hard for me to fight with a high guard like in boxnig, and even now, I leave my head open a lot. I've seen this in the two other people I know who have switched from Kuk Sool to MMA as well. It really feels like I'm keeping my hands up, and looks kind of like it, too, but there really is a difference in the way boxers and karateka hold their guards and prepare for punches - even if it's not the overtly obvious chambering of a kata, in most karate people, there seems to be a habitual slight lowering and pulling back of the guard before punching, which doesn't really add any power, and can be quite dangerous.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2006
  2. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I think this is what we're talking about (see diagram)

    Maybe that is a fundemental difference between the two arts - that in karate a lot of the power comes from the knee and the hip and the force is transmitted throught the heel, whereas in boxing, the force is transmitted through the ball of the foot. OK, I'll agree with you there - this is a clear mechanical difference between the styles.

    Attached Files:

  3. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    So what? Why don't you just learn the "proper" way to punch in the first place? There's no need to make a bigger movement to "learn the concepts" first, it just slows learning down unnecessarily.

    There is a time and a place for developing flexibility at the expense of correct technique, and that is not when you're learning attacks.

    I disagree. When you're actually punching something soild, not just doing it in the air to get a satisfying sound from your gi sleeve, I really don't think it makes much difference.

    Well if you're not guarding your face properly then yeah, it is.
  4. chrispy

    chrispy The Hunter

    Do you have a website I can subscribe to and pay you monthly? Or a super mega elite black belt program I can enroll in for just pennies a day? :)

    seriously though, it's a great idea - the punching thing, not the website I mean
  5. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    comments in red
  6. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    Easier said than done when your opponent's main objective is to hit you in the head.
  7. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    The best way not to get hit is to not be there... :D
  8. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    True, but training that is really boring.
  9. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    nah, i do it all the time, its fun. Its always like:

    "Were you trying to hit me?"
    "Yeah man... I mean.. I think I was, let me try again."
    "You missed again"
    "God, I thought I was gonna get you that time.... Ok, I'm gonna add another strike in"
    "Damn it..."
    "That was close.. almost got me that time, but... you didnt... are you sure you were trying?"
    "I think so.... let me try again" ..................................

    :D :D :D

    I know I'm not the only ninpo student thats had that conversation before.
  10. manofleisure

    manofleisure Valued Member

    You get back what you put into your art, enough said...
  11. sonny boy

    sonny boy New Member

    i can see why

    i can see why it would suck besause youv trained for ages and you get beat to some random person well you need to look at your attitude and you weakness's what does he have that you dont in knowledge attitude and abit of physical body
  12. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    Care to restructure that giant scentence, so we can read it without having a stroke.
  13. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Yes I know the reasons, but I still don't get why it's necessary to do this when everyone else manages fine without it. It's a waste of time. This is part of the reason I don't agree with the "art X is just as good/better, it just takes longer to get good at than kickboxing etc" argument - if it takes that long to get good it's often because they're using inefficient methods that elongate training unnecessarily.

    If you keep your foot flat the whole time it reduces the amount of force you can use to throw your weight into the punch with your legs, so it's not correct, is it?

    Fair play.

    Come on man, if you're in range to punch him he's probably in range to punch you. People in fights do have an annoying tendency to hit you back, meaning you have to be able to defend against the hits. And unless your name is Neo, you're not just going to dodge everything. By your logic, there's no point having your guard up, no point blocking, and no point in doing MA for self defence at all since you just won't be in danger in the first place. You can't just choose not to get hit.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2006
  14. Evil Betty

    Evil Betty Birdy, birdy birdy

    Couldn't agree with you more. Left karate because of that kind of training philosophy: it just doesn't make sense, and it's VERY counter-productive. Self-perfection my ****.
  15. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Yo! The rest of your post is pretty much opinion, so I don't want to argue with it becuase I'm not likely to change your opinion. All I can say is maybe you're right, maybe you're not, I don't know.

    But I don't agree with this bit. A push through the heel seems much stronger to me than a push through the ball of the foot as long as you account for the fact that the average karateka is capable of pushing their weight forward in this way because they've trained to do so in the way shown in my earlier diagram.
  16. Herberto

    Herberto New Member

    Martial arts don't do the fighting, it's the martial artists.
  17. Evil Betty

    Evil Betty Birdy, birdy birdy

    We totally didn't know that. :rolleyes:
  18. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    Well, it's really not. The boxing punch using force from the knees and hips, like in karate, but additionally, it has the force of your ankle pushing you upward. You can't add force into your punch if it doesn't cause part of your body to move. Imagine doing the exact same punch in karate that you're doing right now. Now, additionally, imagine pushing up with your ankle while you're doing it, which pushes your entire body forward. That doesn't make it exactly like a boxing punch, but it should help you to understand that the ankle is an *additional* source of power, not a substitute source of power.

    The ankle doesn't just push upward either. It rotates, so that the toes point forward and then pushes up while twisting. This makes your entire body rotate as well as move up/forward. Keeping your heel down just holds your body back. Try just the heel motion by itself, and you'll see how much force it has behind it.

    I did the karate punch for years. I have a blue belt in Shotokan, orange in Shorei Ryu, and a brown belt in Kuk Sool (which uses the same punches as karate, but a narrower stance). Boxing punches put a lot more of your weight behind the punch than karate punches do. It's something that took me a long time to get right when I switched from Kuk Sool to MMA. A Muay Thai coach that I was training with asked me if I had studied karate. It was blatantly obvious from the way I punched, and I didn't even realize that I was punching differently from everyone else.

    Now that I've got my punching down right, I can tell you, my punches feelsa lot more powerful than they used to. The ankle is used in conjunction with the knees, the hips, the waist, and the shoulder, not only to twist, but to lift. Even in the straight punches, there's a very spiraling motion. All of the force you're exherting is directed upward and outward, through the top of your body, near your head. You angle your body to take advantage of the upward motion as well as the twisting and forward motion when you punch.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2006
  19. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    gotta agree with AZ and not only that, but you might want to watch some footage of guys who are considered pretty damn good in karate circles (Glaube Feitosa, Francisco Filho, Andy Hug, etc) and how they punch. you might be surprised.
  20. samuri-man

    samuri-man New Member

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