Why if I study karate and I get beat does karate suck?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by INTERNAL BOXING, Jan 17, 2005.

  1. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    Well, I'm not going to say that no karate school anywhere does that, but it's not typical, or at least, not typical punch that way often.
  2. WhataFreak

    WhataFreak New Member


    That's actually what they taught you as a "reverse punch" in your karate school? Wow. Glad I didn't train there. WAY many years ago when I did do a traditional martial art, the "reverse punch" we did was very similar to a boxing punch. Not identical. But very similar. I was a black belt and instructor there, and one of the things I would do to help people learn to put power into their punches is to hold their fist with my hand and have them turn and push into a punch, and have them push off of their rear foot while doing so. I wanted them to be able to feel the power of the punch starting down at the ground. I wanted them to feel that push off of their foot, and feel how pushing with their rear foot contributed to the power in their fist, pushing my hand. The foot pushing the ground is one in a long chain of motions that contributes to the power of the punch.
  3. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    Seriously, where do you guys train? Out of three karate schools and all the kuk sool schools I've been to, I've never seen people training punches that looked anything like boxing punches.
  4. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    We don't punch from the hip in free fighting , only basics/kata :)
  5. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    We strike for very much the same reasons damage, destroy structure/balance, cover and create openings. The difference being it is not our only weapon, we are not based solely around striking. A boxers strategy, correct me if I’m wrong is based around bringing his fists to bear on an opponent whilst removing or covering and potential openings he may have?

    It's the same with us the difference being we use more than punches and so this of course has an influence on what we do.

    Don't know what he's on about there??

    EDIT: Actually I think I may have an idea! (The following is just my thoughts and opinion based around what I’ve done, not necessarily fact :D)

    In Boxing for example you are taught to work offensively i.e attack
    first only sensible considering it's role in the sporting arena this also goes over nicely into "real life" :D giving a boxer the ability to deliver a good pre-emptive strike!

    Now what we do may not seem to work in such a manner, although it does!

    We work from drills/Kata/Forms, whatever you want to call them, that seem to be defensive in nature, especially when first learning them. These drills are the building blocks of our art and teach the various concepts within it. So for the most part you seem to be reacting, working in a defensive nature, striking in response to something but what we do can be used in the same way as a pre-emptive/offensive strike IMO the Shinden Fudo Ryu punch seems very nice for this.

    It’s all there you just have to look for it. Ours is a vast art incorporating Nine different Schools, that’s a lot of stuff.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2006
  6. kmguy8

    kmguy8 Not Sin Binned

    whatafreak... great way to teach a student... absolutly fanatastic... in fact I am goig to start another thread in a few minutes where instructors and high level students can trade teaching tips....

    now, after reading and avoiding this thread for days... here are my two cents...
    my experience is limited in taijutsu... but comes from the genbukan line

    boxing, i have several amatuer bouts and train and fight MMA...

    here is the simple down and dirty truth.. by anology
    you can longjump furhter with a running start right?
    all other things being equal, having your weight moving already maximizes the amount traveling in that direction.. more power, right?

    the taijutsu punch refered to in this discussion where you switch stances offers a similar level of "wind-up".. much of your weight is moving in that direction... (i.e. your body travels quite a distance before reaching it's target) hence.. for breaking or other non-combat applications you do generate more "power"

    however, and this is a big "however" my friends...

    the taijutsu punch is not a more combat worthy punch because it is more "powerful"

    anytime your feet cross paths you are unbalanced by definition
    any boxer doing this in the ring would risk being knocked-down inside punching range
    also.. in a real fight maintaing the distance needed to punch like this is difficult and you would be more stable and better off kicking from this range

    additionally, the ninpo and taijutsu fighting stance tends to be very "bladed"
    this "bladed" or "side-stance" position is also a risk in kick-boxing for the hook punch and lateral blows for knock-downs, hence why full-contact kickboxing in the ISKA, K1, & Thai bouts is more square than in TMA

    the taijutsu punch does not generate maximum power from a standing position in relation to a boxer... the stance only allows the rear hip to push forward so far... move that foot to a "mid-stance" or "half-stance" and the ability of the correponding hip to rotate (hence your weight to transfer into the punch) is greatly increased. at the same time the power of the jab increases dramatically because hip rotation increases for power generation on that side as well.... (anyone not familiar with this principle I highly recommend readig or watching anything ever created by bas rutten)

    now... boxers. fighters, DO add thier bodyweight into strikes almost if not matching the power of the taijutsu weight transfer with a small step of the forward leg.. landing while striking the intended target if they have room, range, balance and timing... howver.. the taijutsu strike disscussed here. is NOT applicable in unarmed combat IMHO

    please note (and siphus will enjoy this since he seems to love the idea of leaving weapons around):
    if you put a long-sword, bo staff o other long-range weapon in the hand of someone using this taijutsu footwork, all of the sudden (because of the range change) a great deal of force and speed are able to be generated along with range enhancement with the traditional "full-stance" or "side-stance" fottwork... sadly... unarmed punches are not the strength (in terms of applications) of this combination of movements.. unless you are breaking.... (Comabt Stategy, by hanho covers this topic in far greater detail)

    Anyway, hope this helps clear this silly little debate up....
    and once again whatafreak... great teaching drill offered before...
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2006
  7. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Any chance of a bit of training background in it please. Who with? How long?

    I find it a bit odd to that you think we don't generate power from a close range or aren't capable of striking close up??? and your comments on the use of Kamae seem a bit er basic??? Not wishing to offend here but again it's a bit funny that you think we wil drop back into Ichimonji when it all kicks off.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2006
  8. chrispy

    chrispy The Hunter

    WhatAFreak - great idea! Often I do that when teaching how to do side kicks, - hold the persons foot in the correct position and get them to push me away so they can feel what it's supposed to be like. I may use your technique for the punching in the saturday morning class!
  9. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Like he said, his experience is limited, the punch can work just as good as anything else, will show you tonight ;)

    and look at what we have been doing over the last few weeks, within arms reach of the uke.

    Obviously people do different things but you have to make it live for you.
  10. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    No need, like my ribs thanks :D

    That's what I'm saying though the idea that we don't strike close in and that we will use typical Fudoken from Ichimonji everytime is er not right IMO!

    Lke I said in my other post he seems to be under the impression that we're going to jump back into Ichimonji in the when thigns kick off in middle of a pub :D :D
  11. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    comments in red
  12. kmguy8

    kmguy8 Not Sin Binned

    i hate way ninja cult members argue (generally speaking of course… thankq keikai)… all superior until you get called on the carpet.. then you fall back to “you have to experience it” and when someone has some idea of the art you try and discredit them or apply ridiculous contexts…. It is a sad sad way to rationalize things

    In answer to your query: Michael Colman - futen dojo (at the time testing for his 3rd dan.. now he is fifth) Milwaukee, WI USA
    late 80s.. i reached 4th kyu with him... then moved on to college and judo & boxing before finding SQD, MT, KM and finally training & teaching MMA here in Miami, FL

    why argue against lineage and who trained who like it is a mystery.. why not address the specifics.. why not address the concepts? why not address the fact that TJJ and Ninpo offer multiple stances and punches for those other ranges? (which I never mentioned because I thought it was F98798ing obvious)

    I DID NOT say your art only had one approach, that you could not strike from close, that is what you would adopt or attempt in a pub, etc... .. i was discussing the one punch that is being DISCUSSED in this THREAD... damn...

    stop changing the subject and making sweeping generalizations putting words in my mouth, trying to discredit me or anything else and address the point if you find fault in it... we were discussing.. at least I was… the boxer’s punch vs. “Fudoken from Ichimonji” as you call it…

    and I challenge you to demonstrate how my points were not valid or topical if you review the previous posts….
  13. kmguy8

    kmguy8 Not Sin Binned

    moosey.. in reply to your post.. i'd like to address the chambering vs. covering with the hand...

    i agree pulling back with the opposite lat helps teach students to rotate the striking side hip forther forward and thus put their weight and momentum into the punch very well...

    however, once you are an effective striker... i think that the hard pull on the lat reduces your ability to retract that punch as quickly as possible, also pulling back with the lat leaves your face wide open (hence not AS good in real combat)

    once the hips rotate... the contraction of the lat I think actually offers very little once the proper mechanics are learned... and considering the retraction (due in part ot over rotation being easier and in part to the less relaxed musculature) is slower... the side chambered puch seems like it should be forgotten and not used anywhere again (with the possible exception of breaking) once mastered...

    what are your thoughts on the matter?
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2006
  14. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    No not at all!

    Where was I arguing with Greg/KeiKai? :confused: also I think the cult comment is unwarranted. Hmm possible personal attack and so TOS violation??
    What’s with the called on the carpet comment?

    I've never seen you in the Ninjutsu forum. Don't know anything about you and so made what seemed to me to be a friendly request for info, so I knew who I was talking to.

    You said your experience was limited. I wanted to know to what extent.

    Thank you not so hard really was it.

    Hmm pretty aggressive aren’t you?

    Where have I argued about your lineage? I simply asked what your experience is.

    Why do you have a problem with that?

    Er I think you need to have a sit down or something you’re going to blow a blood vessel at this rate.

    I haven’t tried to discredit you, I said IMO your idea of some of the things where a bit basic I even pointed out that I was not out to be offensive.

    In fact I haven’t been discussing one punch vs another. My main debate has been with Timmyboy about Boxing integrating other methods and why or why not it hasn’t adopted our style of punching.

    Right when you’ve calmed down I’ll be more than willing to discuss things to the best of my ability based on what my understanding is at the moment.

    But with your current attitude I think it will just take away from what is turning out to be an interesting debate.
  15. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Hi KM, I guess I didn't explain my point too well (or I'm getting the names of muscle groups wrong!). My issue was with shoulder-up versus shoulder-down in punching. I feel that locking the shoulder of the punching arm down towards the torso by tightening the lat and pectoral muscles as you throw a punch results in a stronger blow (in any given individual - so not counting differences in muscle strength between people) than allowing the shoulder to roll up towards the face as you punch. I wouldn't like to say that with 100% certainty though - what do you think?
  16. kmguy8

    kmguy8 Not Sin Binned

    spooky - your right.. upon rereading my post.. i was overly aggressive.... after reading your and siphus's posts.. your answers to timmyboy had been frusterating and followed the same logic you used in your reply to me... again.. my apologies & assurances I will respond more calmly... please however keep my remarks in context during your replies... was I mistaken in that you were comparing the power in a boxer;s cross to Fudoken from Ichimonji?

    i know you were discussing why boxing had not intergrated other striking skills.. and using yours as an example (from the discription on the same page as my post) I explained why that strike would never be used in boxing....

    I do have a problem with the fact you did not address my point at all other than to ask my lineage & imply I said this was your systems only punch...I have no problem with lineage discussions.. but on a topical detailed aynalisis of body mechanics they have no place IMHO
    and since it is a tact I have often seen used in the world of ninjutsu and TMA in general.... I think it is time this tactic be laid to rest.. that's all I really meant to say

    ANd moosey... i will agree from a basic square stance where the feet are not moving and the hips to do rotate... the pec and lat metod does in fact generate maximum power... however from a modern boxing stance the hip rotating from a cross or jab puts the shoulders perpendicular to the target with the arm fully extended.. retraction relies on the hips returning to parellel to the opponent and arm withdrawn from extension... with the back flexed.. i feel this is difficult

    also to defend the face... the chin (side facing the opponent) needs to be against the shoulder at full extension to protect it and the opposite hand should be at the "open side" of the chin.. or float across to protect the face
    during retaction of the punch.. the hip that was forward will ussually pass 90 and wind up in the rear as the opposite side hand now fires another strike in combination.. so having it at shoulder height seems safest and ideal to set up and throw combonations...

    once you learn to strike the striks are relaxed and rely little on muscle power and much more on weight transfer.. i do not feel once mechanics are learned that weight transfer is aided by a tightening of the lat or pec intentionally... that is how I fel about it anyway

    and spooky & the rest of the ninjas... again... my apologies
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2006
  17. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    No problem :D

    It's hard enough anway to keep track of what's going on here :D :D

    er have to go and do what I'm paid for now :D I'll come back and answer latter.
  18. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    For clarity, when I was talking about "not punching until we have to" I meant exactly what spooky was on about. :D I didnt mean we just stand their aimlessly until the very last second until... well.. yeah we kinda do that too... Hm.. Well.. what spooky said.

    kmguy, lucky man to train with Coleman sensei! I'm not sure what to say about your posts yet, I kind of agree with some if it, and other parts seem kind of basic. But then again, we ARE talking about the BASIC fudoken tsuki, so I dont know.
  19. WhataFreak

    WhataFreak New Member

    I have not set foot in that school in over 10 years. I moved from one side of the country to the other, and now live thousands of miles away from that school. I have no idea what they are doing now, if the instructors or curriculum have changed, etc. Because of that, I won't mention the school, because I have no idea if what I discuss is still true or not. :)
  20. WhataFreak

    WhataFreak New Member

    No prob. But you now owe me $50 for the online seminar. :D

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