Why if I study karate and I get beat does karate suck?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by INTERNAL BOXING, Jan 17, 2005.

  1. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    I have to agree with special kid Timmy to an extent. No art is better than another as such, just some arts are designed to fight. Boxing is the sport version of fist fighting, something that has been around since goodness knows when. It has been found to work and to hurt and so on. The fact is, some arts are meant for fighting and are superior to others for fighting. Bas Rutten trained in TKD, but he switched to MT when he saw a MT'er completely leather one of the people in his class. He learn JJ because he had no ground game. Honestly, Ninjutsu people often say 'Ninjutsu isn't designed for a ring thats why it isn't used in one, we don't need to proove ourself etc. etc.' well the fact is Until a ninjutsu person steps into a ring toe to toe with an MMA'er or similar we will never know how the systems compare.
  2. Taff

    Taff The Inevitable Hulk

    On the otherhand, back when "MMA" was more "style vs style", perhaps it is these arts that proved themselves to be the most effective in the ring?

    On the subject of Occam's Razor: "the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explantory hypothesis or theory"
    (From wikipedia)
    It's very obvious but really we should always use this when talking about martial arts.
    ie there might be chi behind punches, or there might not. But if the punch can be explained adequately without chi, then chi is not needed.
  3. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Fair enough. Can’t really change that even if I wanted to.

    Not that it takes longer to learn than boxing but it takes a long time.

    Again my point is why would they abandon what they know then spend years learning another method that may prove more beneficial for them. When they have a perfectly workable effective method already that has been developed for the environment they work in.

    This is for my interest more than being argumentative. Has there ever been a time in recent years when Boxing as an art has looked at other methods? I.E Potentially a total change in the art.

    I know it went through a progression of losing the holds and throws that existed in it’s predecessor of Bare Fist fighting here in England and that it also developed for other reasons than just a combat system but I was wondering what other evolutionary changes it has gone through.

    Well hold on wasn’t your argument that if it was better a boxer would use it? Sorry thought that was our main discussion point?

    I didn’t say you were just wanted to know. So are you going to compare the two then, as you haven’t done it in the above? Shouldn’t be to hard as it seems you have experience in both.

    If a Karate punch were to be trained as intensively, as a boxer does his method, within it's art then would it not be as powerful as a Boxers punch?

    That's just going on what you've said above.

    But if it's just due to the punch not being trained enough, as you've said above, then wouldn't training it more be a better option than learning a whole new way?

    So going on what you've said it's just the training methods and not the actully technical details of the strike that make it better or worse than a boxers?

    Ok cheers.

    I read in English Martial Arts by Terry Brown er page 70-ish I think that gloves were introduced by Jack Broughton, who also introduced the code that developed into modern Rules, as a means of getting the higher class members of society into the sport. It was at this point that the art was developing more into a sport and less pure combat and that the gloves were use just for training not in the ring. Now I’m not saying that it’s a bad art, just outlining my understanding of it’s development.

    How so? Do you understand my art? If not then how can you expect to follow some of my points and how they relate to my art?

    Yes you did. You missed it the first time I asked.

    I was illustrating the fact that you too had missed a question. It is only now that you have made an attempt at answering.

    Who said they are superior?
    You said if they were better they would be being used. So I asked if you could show me where a boxer has looked at them?

    I have no need for you to except anything.

    What’s to back up? You said you wont believe it till you see it. My response was that I don’t think it will happen. Nothing to do with not accepting things is it?

    I’m not really arguing just asking questions and putting my experience across and my reasoning. I have also tried to the best of my ability to respond to you points.

    My point that you quoted simply said I had made no claims about power. I didn’t argue that we weren’t talking about it.

    You seem to be looking for a fight where one doesn’t exist.

    You’ve made a deal out of people not backing up their points and even accused me of it, again I can’t see where I haven't explained my reasoning, yet you feel it’s ok to give a white wash response of: “Beating people up”

    Then why aren’t they using big sticks in the ring? It’ll achieve their goals wont it?

    Bit more than that to it isn't there?

    Our strikes funnily enough involve shifting our weight and using our legs, hips and spine to drive our fist.

    So are we punching in the same way? Sounds like it.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2006
  4. Dragon Brush

    Dragon Brush Valued Member

    I only meant to suggest that a boxing punch is a punch, whereas, as stated before, taijutsu strikes have other purposes. I was not aiming to offend.

    I meant that a boxer wouldn't want to put the follow-through into the attack because its slower than a conventional punch.
  5. GojuKJoe

    GojuKJoe Valued Member

    Go to a boxing club and spar with some of them, then tell me they don't put the follow through in their punches. If you put more follow through in your punches than boxers, you are being ridiculously reckless, and to be blunt, stupid.

    Let's say that a karate club trains all it's techniques very hard, and does lots of hard contact, all-in sparring, with grappling etc. and often spar with fighters of other "styles" aswell, their punches will be trained to the highest degree required of a fight, and they won't leave their face open, or punch from the hip, or make any stupid mistakes that a lot of karateka usually do. Now, what is the difference between these fighters punches, and boxing punches?
  6. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Concentrating on that note, these few threads might be of interest in terms of why ninpo isnt really a competition/ style vs. style/ ring -type of art.



    Which, IMO, is one of the main reasons its techniques arent showcased in most ring-type fights. If all the techniques were equal (which they arent) then its really the mindset behind the punch, that sets it apart from others. Thats the main difference I see. Pretending a taijutsu punch is the same as a boxing punch, the purpose behind it is to hit someoen with it, and jump over the ropes and run away; not to be forced to continue the battle. I cant think of many styles that enforce this type of thinking. From TMAs to MMAs, the majority of the fighting has to do with matching forces. Which is fine, in fact, we do the same thing. But what makes ninjutsu "so different" is the added element of working on escaping, evading, awareness etc that really set it apart. Everyone always says "the best thing to do in a fight is to run away" but how many arts actually practice the techniques to enable you to do it? Or, to say it better, how many really have that as a main focus?

    This doesnt mean we wouldnt be able to hold our own in a ring. Because trust me, there are some angry angry throws and strikes just like in any other art. But, as slip said:

    "Because the focus of Ninjitsu is not competition fighting.

    Because many of the types of strikes/attacks that are part of Ninjitsu are not allowed in a MMA competition.

    Because there are no weapons allowed."

    As well as when satori said:

    "However...in Ninjutsu, combat is NOT the end, but the means to an end. Survival has a LOT more to do with escaping, evading, subterfuge, quick talking, etc... than simple "I heet joo till joo stawp moooving". Sure, combat is covered within Ninjutsu...but has anyone noticed how much more emphasis is placed upon movement, intuition, energy control, and other non-combative practices? Has anyone else noticed that almost all techniques are defensive in nature (almost all...I've seen some pre-emptive strikes that look painful), and are designed to allow for immediate escape?

    The simple truth is that YES, a Ninjutsu-ka could compete in K-1, Pride, UFC, etc... However, they would have to train specifically for it, and completely change their mentality in regards to the combative encounter. Competition rewards aggressive, violent behavior. Ninjutsu is not aggressive or intentionally violent."

    Again, this isnt saying we are better or our training is better for da street. What I'm trying to say is the same thing spooky said earlier, that the mentality and purpose does NOT lend itself to boxing. You cant just take a few moves out of ninpo and expect them to work the same in a boxing environment. Imagine someone who trains in ninjutsu put in a boxing ring, under boxing rules, to fight a boxer. Ow...it wouldnt be pretty. Does this mean we suck at fighting? No not really. We arent as good at boxing as a boxer though. How well would a boxer do in the godan test?! :eek: But does that mean he sucks as a martial artist? No, not really. But hes not as good at dodging weapons as us. Different mentalities and different mindsets are what really sets apart styles IMO. More so than technique does.

    Long rant about nothing, really. Thats probably my last post in this thread. I dont want to argue about anything, and I dont think I've said anything too offensive or anything that can me misconstrued. The above is semi-agreeable, isnt it?

  7. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    I see what you're saying here, but the thing is, if the taijutsu punch really is more powerful, then the system they have is not "perfectly workable" and they should adopt the more powerful technique.

    I know that there have been some changes in training methodology in things like fitness; for example, coaches now know that interval training is more effective for the kind of endurance a boxer needs than just saying "run X amount of miles".

    Sorry, I must have not been very clear. What I mean is, if it was proven to be better, then a boxer would use it. Until it is, they won't be convinced and nor will I.

    The main differences that affect power for straight punches are the lower stance in karate/TSD, which doesn't help to to throw your bodyweight forward, and the fact that we were told not to "over-exert" (read: follow through) with our punches, which would apparently make them easier to counter. Circular punches were weaker because they didn't use the pivoting and weight shifting that you use in boxing. To be fair, karate/TSD (which IME I consider to be pretty much another style of karate) does have other tools to use at that range which decrease the overall importance of powerful hooks and uppercuts, but again this is not about effectiveness of the styles as a whole, it's about punching power.

    I admit that I've not been entirely clear on this, and for that I apologise. It's not just that a boxer will have dedicated his time purely to good punching technique, it's also that it is where the body mechanics of punching are studied at their highest level, in isolation from other factors that would hinder the power of more holistic arts. For example, in muay thai, although the punches they use now were adopted from boxing, they often aren't thrown with quite so much power because the weight isn't shifted around so much; this is because, if they were to do so, their legs would become vulnerable to being poleaxed by constant roundhouse kicks. This is not a concern for a pure boxer, and as such he is able to maximise his punching power unhindered.

    Again, sorry for not being clearer on this, but I hope my explanation above explains it.

    No problem.

    That may well be true, and I'm certainly not going to argue with Jack Broughton.

    In a discussion about pure punching power, I don't see why I need to have a comprehensive knowledge of taijutsu in order to understand why the punches are more powerful. They might be more effective in their own way as part of the more holistic approach of taijutsu, but the question here is the damaging power of the punches themselves.

    In that case, I apologise, I genuinely didn't see it.

    If they were really better, there would be no reason why a taijutsu practitioner could not have proved this by now.

    Fair enough.

    You seem to be still arguing your point despite not wanting to support it, however good your reasons might be. That's what I don't understand.

    If you're not talking about power, what is your point?

    But to me, "beating people up" is not a white-wash. It's simple - I believe that boxing style punches have more damage potential than any other.

    Because they're not allowed to do that. That has nothing to do with punching technique.

    If it really is the same way - and for all I know it may well be - why are people claiming that Ninjutsu punches are more powerful?
  8. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    With the greatest respect... you're wrong. In boxing, you DO get taught to follow through and they're NOT slower. Speed and power are both very important.
  9. Dragon Brush

    Dragon Brush Valued Member

    I when I said the follow through I was reffering to the same level of follow-through used in taijutsu punches, not follow-through in general. I've said it several times.
  10. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    And what exactly does that mean? When you throw a taijitsu punch, do you follow through so much that you're off balance and fall forward onto your face?

    How much do you know about boxing punches, anyway? Maybe a short description of one kind would be helpful. Let's look at the cross - the straight punch with the rear hand:

    You start by rotating your back leg and pushing up onto your back toe. As your body is pushed upward, you rotate your hips so that your back side starts to move forward. Then, you lean foward slightly, raise your rear shoulder, and start extending your arm.

    Now, this, to me, seems like the ultimate in follow through, since your entire body is behind the punch. In what additional way do taijitsu practitioners follow through?
  11. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    And that's also a pretty good description of a gyakuzuki(reverse punch) in karate :)
  12. Taff

    Taff The Inevitable Hulk

    LOL. Not a question you want to be asking. :p :eek:
  13. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    Not so much. Even though I only have a remedial ranking in two styles of karate, I've still studied two styles of karate. Plus I have a brown belt in Kuk Sool, which has similar punches to karate.

    Reverse punch in karate:

    Arm is chambered at the hip or ribs
    There is little or no push off from the back foot (the back heel doesn't move up off the ground like in boxing)
    The shoulder does not come up to cover the face
    You do not lean forward when punching (in fact, when I went back to my karate dojo after studying MMA they told me to, and I quote, "stop leaning into your punches like a boxer")
    There's more twisting the waist and not so much of an up/forward movement.

    But we were, at this point, despite the title of the thread, talking about taijitsu, and how by some miracle, they follow through in their punches more than boxers.
  14. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    You actually step through in taijutsu.
  15. Dragon Brush

    Dragon Brush Valued Member

    THAT is what I'm trying to say! The follow through goes beyound a simple lean, or a turn in the hips. You step forward and bend on the forward knee. I've never seen a boxer take a step that far into a punch.
  16. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    Well, you couldn't have said it in a more ambiguous way. A simple "we step through" would have done the trick.

    It's an utterly complex putting one foot in front of the other.

    There's probably a reason for that. Does this mean you switch your stance when you punch with your rear hand?

    It seems like taking a step would slow you down and off balance you a little bit. I can't imagine throwing very many punches quickly in a row if you have to take a step every time.
  17. Dragon Brush

    Dragon Brush Valued Member

    If you'll kindly observe some of my posts over the past few pages you'll notice that I tried that. So did Siphus, as I recall.
  18. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Not really. I mean, yes I suppose it takes more time than a jab, but this isnt used the same. Like I was saying earlier, we dont strike until we have to. And even then, its not gaurenteed. Maybe I'll just shoulder tackle you into the pavement and run away. Its just a different means of training, thats all. ALMOST every kata I've seen (think drills not "forms") involve a few 'set up" strikes followed by a throw. Thats just the way we train.
  19. chrispy

    chrispy The Hunter

    On this I must disagree, the punch you described initially AZeitung and Bassai said 'that's like a reverse punch' is pretty much 99% accurate of how we throw a reverse punch at my school... now granted we do 'freestyle' karate at my school, but Karate none the less.

    As a side note, I have yet to throw a punch from the hip.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2006
  20. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    Well, I didn't see it, although in 28 pages, I might have missed it.

    He said "it's not a simple. . .". Which implies he thinks putting one foot in front of the other is a more complicated movement.

    See, this is the type of thing that gives this type of punching less credibility in my eyes. Boxers don't stand around throwing punches for no reason. They either throw a punch to set up other punches or they throw a punch with the intent to do damage, off balance the oponent, or create an opening, etc. There's always a purpose behind the punches, and they're definitely necessarry to do damage.

    So what exactly do you mean you don't strike until you have to? Do you mean you wait until it is absolutely imparitive that you strike-that you'll be physically injured if you wait a second longer?

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