Why if I study karate and I get beat does karate suck?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by INTERNAL BOXING, Jan 17, 2005.

  1. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    I think what spooky is trying to say is that the punches work for us, and they work better for us than other punches do. Its the same way around. I dont see why a taijutsu punch would be of any advantage to a boxer. Are they gonna use a boshiken tsuki to unbalance their uke, use ganseki nage, tobiori over the ropes and run away?

    (for not ninjer speakers: Are they gonna use an extended thumb strike (kinda hard with gloves on, eh?) to unbalance their opponent, grab them in an under arm-type throw, dive roll over the ropes and run away?)

    Probably not. In fact, not at all. Our purpose isnt to sit there and fight, its to break something and/or leave. So why would a boxer want to do this, when they are so damn good at beating the crap out of each other?
  2. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Taff I think youve hit the nail on the head! with this bit:

    Going on form the above:

    It takes us a fair amount of time to internalise our movement and make it useful. It is from our movment that our power comes. Now is a Pro Boxer going to want to spend years doing what we do and working on our art? Or is he going to stay with what he knows and what I would think is a faster track to developing good solid punching ability.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2006
  3. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned


    Yep they are very good at beating the crap out of each other! I wouldn't want to get cornered by a good Boxer :eek:

    What we do just doesn't lend itself to the sturcture of boxing.
  4. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    What happened to just hitting each other hard! :D

    I don't think it gets much better than boxing style punches. Watching UFC and the like you could see how all the styles started using boxing punches as MMA arrived on the scene.

    Maybe it was boxing that perfected the balance between attack and defence.
  5. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Siphus, I've decided not to reply to you and to put you on my ignore list. You're an arrogant troll. You can't make your mind up what your point is. When you're pressed on the subject you admit you can't explain it and act like you don't care about this debate, but you STILL want us to believe what you say regardless. You think you don't have to support your arguments and we have to just bow down to your authority. I'm no longer interested, I'm going to stick to debating with people who actually know how to argue.

    Or someone who does ninjutsu could *shock horror* do boxing and then prove to everyone in the ring how much more powerful it is. You also seem to be underestimating the years of training that goes into making a top level boxer.
  6. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Beating people up.

    Yeah because boxers never do in-fighting do they.

    A boxing punch is better.

    Actually, some are. As for the rest, they're too arrogant to admit that boxing is a better punching system.

    You know what the purpose of boxing is. It's to knock someone out using your fists.

    If the punch is more powerful the punch is more powerful. Taijutsu may have other purposes, and may even be a better art as a whole, but we are talking about punching power and if it's really that much more powerful there's no reason why it can't be proven in the ring. Also, put the argument about "unless you train in our art you don't know what I mean" awway right now, it's no more convincing and no less arrogant than when Siphus used it. If you're not able to support your arguments don't bother.

    Once again you ignore my point about muay thai. If the punching technique was proven to be more powerful in the ring it would be adopted. However, it hasn't been. If you told Mike Tyson that taijutsu punches are more powerful he'd laugh in your face for this reason.

    No. Can you show me a taijutsu practitioner who has ever actually proven that his punches are more powerful?

    It would be quite easy for a taijutsuka somewhere to prove in a full contact environment that taijutsu punches are more powerful. Until that happens, I'm calling BS.

    Because they're not as effective.
  7. Dragon Brush

    Dragon Brush Valued Member

    You don't seem to realize--Ninutsu punches aren't used for the same purposes as boxing punches! Of course they are meant to cause damage, but not just that.

    A boxer has no interest in progressing from a punch to some throat jabs or throws, so why would they bother with the deep follow-through necessary to put bodyweight into the punch as a ninjutsuka would? (I also hesitate to say ninja).

    A taijutsu punch is not necessarily better, it just works better with our art than a simple boxing punch would. It has significant power, but requires more of a delay; a delay that could get you pwned by swift jabs if the punch was thrown alone or was avoided/blocked.

    And before you start in, Timmy Boy, about why it would be used if you'd get pwned for using it, as in all arts, you are taught to use it effectively.

    The End.
  8. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    What are the mechanics of a (presumably western-style) boxing punch that make it so much more effective rather than it simply being that Mike Tyson is built like a giant brick shed and has a lot of power behind each blow?

    :rolleyes: enlightening.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2006
  9. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Tyson is actually very small for a heavyweight. You're also forgetting that boxing has more than one weight division. I don't think karate punches are bad, as it happens, I just think that boxing has more effective punches than everything else, simply because that's all they train for. Having done karate, I think the punches are actually fairly similar in terms of mechanics, though I objected to having such a low stance and not guarding my face.

    Well I'm sorry if I offended you by having an opinion Moosey, but I've already stated why I think what I do.
  10. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    They could but why should they? Not being off but I don’t think a lot of exponents would want to do that. Again it doesn’t lend its self to the structure of boxing.

    Where have I underestimated the training requirements to become come a top boxer? Could you show me please.

    It’s those requirements that make me wonder why they would potentially waste their time looking at something that may not be beneficial for them and what they do.

    How? Compare the dynamics of the two strikes please.

    Now I’m not being funny here I’m just having trouble following your point.
    Are you saying that some Karateka are dropping their arts method of striking in competitions in favour of a boxing punch and using it in a Karate competition?

    Then why were Gloves introduced?
    Again not being awkward just trying to get a picture and build up a better understanding.

    Apart from the fact, as Taff said, it wouldn’t fit into the structure of boxing, back again to our body movement which in turns leads us back to you having no experience in what we do and so will not be able to appreciate what I’m on about. Just like I would have trouble if we were on about some CMA concepts or training.

    I stand by the fact that unless you train in my art you will not be able to fully understand where we are coming from with some things, that is not a bad thing it just is! So I’ll keep that thank you.

    No I haven’t ignored anything sometimes with that many points to address things get missed. Just like you missed my request to take me through the Dynamics of a boxing punch and it’s purpose.

    So I take it you can’t answer my question then as your response is simply to deflect and answer with another question? Or are you saying no you can’t show me a boxer who has looked at Taijustu striking as a viable alternative to his own method?

    Again just want clarification please.

    You’re making the assumption that there’s people out there that give a dam :D have you thought we might not just feel the need to do this?

    Also if you notice I have made no claims about power when comparing it to a boxing punch. I’ve give my experience with the two forms and what I found. I’ve also stated that they seems to have a different purpose and approach it is for this reason that I think they would not fit into a boxing environment, working under boxing conditions.

    Effective how? Please don’t come back with beating people up.
    Take me through the dynamics/structure/form or whatever of a boxing punch. Tell me why it’s done the way it’s done and the purpose it serves.

    Oh PS cheers for the debate.

    Last edited: Apr 5, 2006
  11. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I agree with you on the bold bit (well, and most of the rest really, but definitely the bold bit). I get the impression that the intense training and constant practice in the ring environment along with all of the supplementary exercise that is pretty much mandatory is what makes boxing so damn effective rather than that a boxing punch is "better" per se.

    Not offended at all. I wasn't just being randomly snappy - I think you could've explained the differences in motion between a boxing and a karate punch more effectively in order to explain it to Spooky.

    I'm not really qualified to do that as I've never trained in boxing but I think if the debate is about just the punching rather than the training regime as a whole, it would make sense to define what the differences are beyond the fact that boxers train more competitively than most MAs.
  12. Tsumetai

    Tsumetai Banned Banned

    Well... When a first rank student of system A can generally always defeat a black belt in system B, it is only logical to assume that system A is the better system.

    You could be defensive about the topic, however, and make suggestions such as the one(s) you are now... Ockham's Razor states that "the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explantory hypothesis or theory".

    My point in making this reference is to destroy any possible argument that it's the instructor(s) or student(s) who suck, as opposed to the system.

    The fact of the matter is, some systems are a lot more efficient than others. No one on MA seems to realize this, and often flat out contradict it - an open display of ignorance.

    EDIT: I thought I'd take this moment to distinguish between martial arts and sciences. A kata is a choreographed war dance. Kata isn't fighting. It's beautiful, but again, it's not fighting. Sticking hands and sparring are the science, the essence of a Warrior's training, not "fighting paper dragons".

    I expect to be flamed for this post, as I can't exactly show the difference in efficiencies without filming something... Which as you know i'm too lazy to do. It's obvious to anyone who's trained in both an art such as Karate (however general a term for a system... not all systems of Karate 'suck'), and an art such as Aikido or Wing Chun, that there is in fact a huge difference in how effective the system is overall.

    You have three options for how to respond to this post...
    A) Take this openly and don't try to argue until you know what you're talking about.
    B) Be short-sighted and ignorant and begin the flaming.
    C) Make a clear and precise argument in the event that you should know what you're talking about, which is rare on this site.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2006
  13. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Doesn't that depend on the requirments for rank, the process involved, and how they differ between systems?
  14. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    True, although the majority of boxing punches thrown are done so to progress onto another attack.

    To hit with more power?

    What is this simple boxing punch? :D

    Boxing punches are not all about power, but also; defensive punching, footwork, movement and strategy are what have made boxing skills a formidable weapon.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2006
  15. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Then until they do I'm afraid I just don't believe them.

    You argued that a boxer wouldn't use taijutsu punches because they take longer to learn. By saying this, you're underestimating how long it takes to become REALLY good at boxing.

    For the millionth time, I'm not talking about boxers trying out taijutsu, I'm talking about taijutsuka proving that their punching method is better.

    The mechanics are similar, but the karate punch is simply not trained as much as a boxing punch and as such will not be as powerful. In addition, it leaves the face exposed. I have done karate and TSD so it's not like I'm talking from a complete lack of experience.

    Now, someone is bound to point out to me that that's not how karateka fight in sparring. But why not? If you learn one set of techniques then apply another what's the point when you could just learn the effective techniques in the first place?

    Some are using them, yes. Some TMA clubs are open minded enough to acknowledge weaknesses in their training and working to adjust them.

    To protect your hands from the wear and tear of constantly punching things hard. I can assure you that they don't stop the punches from hurting and people still get knocked out in the boxing ring.

    Then we will have to agree to disagree because that's not a convincing argument at all.

    I haven't missed your request, you only made it in this post, and I've explained it to you.

    I don't know of a boxer who has, but the onus of proof is on those claiming that taijutsu punches are superior.

    If you don't care, then fine. Just don't expect me to believe you. Like Siphus, you seem to want me to accept your argument but you don't want to back it up.

    You know we are talking about power.

    Why can't I come back with beating people up? That is the purpose.

    Boxing punches involve shifting your weight and using your leg muscles to drive your fist through the target. This makes them powerful enough to be most effective at - shock horror - beating people up.
  16. Guizzy

    Guizzy with Arnaud and Eustache

    Timmy; you keep asking people to prove their points, but all you do is running around claiming boxing is t3h ub3r and that every art wants to do t3h box1ng.

    Sorry, but not so.

    Proof through use in a professionnal setting is not proof for two reasons:

    1. Anyone can create a competition where their art is advantaged and claim it's the best for that.

    2. Chicken and the egg. The reason why all t3h professionnal MMA fighters train in BJJ/MT/Bxing/Wrestling perhaps is because they train for the explicit reason of getting into the ring. Thus, they waste no time looking at other martial arts, and they train exclusively in those that are reputed to work.

    I haven't got the time right now, but I'll look for the quote where Marc "Animal" MacYoung explains how boxing volountarly went from a good martial arts guard to an inferior sport/show one. I'm not saying I think that's true, but at least it proves that it can be argued that when boxing "adapts", it's not only for the best.
  17. Tsumetai

    Tsumetai Banned Banned

    Yes, but when the first rank of one system can defeat the last rank of another system (of course black is rarely the last rank...), it's only logical to assume that the first system is the better.

    For instance, we have five belt rankings. Our first rank is about the equivalent of a good black belt. Our second has every right to sneer at a black belt of most schools in the state. Of course this implies that for each belt rank we gain more knowledge than each belt rank in a system with ten or twenty belts, however it also implies that when one of our students reaches the last rank, because our first rank is the equivalent of the other system's near last rank, ours will be the better fighter in comparison to a practitioner of the last rank of the other system.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2006
  18. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Yes, but when I say that I'm not talking purely from an individualistic standpoint. What I mean is, the science and body mechanics of punching is studied in greater depth than in any other art, thus producing the best punching technique.

    Well, see above for a clearer explanation.
  19. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Guizzy, I'm not saying boxing is better than karate, for what it's worth I think the full contact versions of karate are actually better. I'm talking purely about the punching technique. There is no reason in the rules for why a closed-fist taijutsu punch cannot be used in boxing.
  20. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    That's true, quite a few top karate competitors train in boxing too. It does help to work your combination-punching speed and aggression.

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