Why if I study karate and I get beat does karate suck?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by INTERNAL BOXING, Jan 17, 2005.

  1. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Ask Siphus! :D
  2. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    No. You lunge in boxing punches as well.
  3. GojuKJoe

    GojuKJoe Valued Member

    All you have to do to see this in action is watch a boxing match. Pay attention people, look at what is in front of you.
  4. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    To me this all smells suspiciously of "anti-sport" syndrome, in which people exaggerate the extent to which the rules of sport arts affect the effectiveness of the techniques. Yes, boxing is a sport, but it's full contact and you're supposed to try to knock the other guy out. It's not handbags at ten paces, people.
  5. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise


    Thing is, it took me 4 years of Japanese classes, plus 2 years of ninpo classes to finally scrape iceberg of the language to translate it over to english. As far as the "terminology debate" goes, its extremely difficult.
  6. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Its not the same, period. You need a demonstration, obviously, so goto a ninpo school and ask.
  7. kuntao kid

    kuntao kid New Member

    Its not really tha system it U and how heard U train
  8. Dragon Brush

    Dragon Brush Valued Member

    I did not mean to suggest anything negative about combat sports. I'm only talking about the slight difference in the execution of technique.

    And I've never seen a boxer lean into a punch like a Ninjutsu practioner.
  9. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Don't know if I agree with that. I've done basic boxing, via JKD, and I don't know if there is more weight behind a Taijutsu punch?

    Both Arts teach the use of foot work along with correct use of spine and hips to generate power however I do feel that the punches in Taijutsu using the idea of "heavy hands" generate more er Thud and penertration. I think one reason for this being due to them being used to hit the skeleton where as, to me, a Boxing blow is more general blow, trying to think of a good way of wording it, it's going to alter your whole body due to the impact where as a Taijutsu strike will do the same but via different means i.e. hitting a part of your body so as to affect the whole, taking away structure.

    I'm not saying one is better than the other just that they are the same sort of tool just used for a slightly different job, for the same end. :D

    Hope I've made sense.

    Another point I will say is that I feel I get less energy returned from a Taijustu strike than a boxing i.e. more goes into my target. Working on a heavy bag doing both I get more jar from a Boxing type hit but that could just be me being rubbish! :D :D

    We're discussing punches within Taijutsu but in one of my previous posts I mentioned that there are different punches that we do Shiden Fudo Ryu compare to Gyokko RYu for example. So it would help if Siphus clarified what he means by a Taijutsu punch?

    er hold on what you saying about me then?? :D :D
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2006
  10. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    hahaha, well i meant from the start of the thread. Its nice to have someone in the mix now, im not really used to it.

    As far as the punches go... I guess I can kinda see what you are saying, (btw I'm talking about standard taijutsu punches, usually in the beginning of most kata [thats shinden fudo ryu, isnt it? ]). Perhaps bodyweight IS the wrong term. Im not sure. There def is a different feeling to them tho, isnt there? Being on both ends of the punches, I can feel a difference, as well as being the tori and giving them out. Maybe it has something to do with the follow-through?
  11. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    All of this still hasn't answered the question of why taijutsu punches aren't used in boxing. Not the single knuckle strikes etc, the basic closed first punches. The fact that they're used to create a distraction rather than to deliver knockout blow is irrelevant - if they're more powerful then they should be more effective than boxing punches for either purpose. So I ask, again, why aren't they used?
  12. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    er isn't that sort of like saying why aren't Capoeira kicks used in a TKD match?

    Why would Boxing which is a defined Art with it's own history and evolution use another method of punching? A method the comes from a different cultural background and and from arts which involve combat with weapons and whilst wearing armour, which is a bit different to a pair of boxing gloves! :confused:

    Oh and define power.

    I'd class both a Systema punch and a boxing punch powerful. I've been on the end of Systema punches where they haven't moved me but by god have they hurt inside and I bet if a boxer was to hit me I'd dam well move, probably end up on my ass.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2006
  13. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Capoeira kicks and TKD are not analogous because TKD is not a full contact sport where the aim is to knock people out, so fast kicks that score points are more important. Boxing, on the other hand, has changed a lot since it was created, but the aim is still to knock someone out, and if you've got fighters being paid millions of dollars per fight, you're going to use whatever's more effective. Look at muay thai, that adopted western boxing punches because they worked better.

    As for defining power, I think that should be left to the person who claimed taijutsu punches were more powerful in the first place.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2006
  14. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Your asking why two different arts with different elvoution aren't using the same punches???

    Why not ask why Boxers aren't using Karate punches? They have some power behind them don't they?

    Take boxing from x amount of years back and although different it'll still look like boxing.

    I would think the art would have to be undergo a massive change to incorpoarte our type of strikes, our Taijutsu is not the same as a Boxers Taijutsu. We use our bodies differently and so the whole art of boxing would have to change. Also I doubt if many Pro boxers have spent the time looking at our Art I mean given the choice what they going to do? Train for the next fight or go off and learn a whole new art that might on the off chance prove better for them.

    Boxing dates back over many many many years in this country, heck it started here. Taijustu is very new, here, in comparrison. Boxing has a long history and like you say has changed from bare fist fighting including holds and throws to the introduction of a code of rules and then gloves, which were only used at first as a training aid, by Jack Broughton. what I'm saying is it has a pedigree yes rules change and training gets better but it's still boxing for it to use Bujinkan Taijutsu then it would be Bujinkan Taijutsu and not boxing.

    No what is your definition of power?
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2006
  15. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    I never really said "powerful" i said more body weight, and even that is up for debate. I'm gonna edit this because it didnt sound right... Hm... The intent and purpose behind some/most of the punches in taijutsu serve a different purpose. Ive have been moved off of the ground and onto my ass from a taijutsu punch, on numerous occasions. This could be due to the angle of the strike, the fist used, the timing, the folow through, i dunno... It FELT different than a body shot from MT. It FELT like there was more behind it. This, i attributed to bodyweight, but it could be numerous other things. I'm not sure.

    Yes, a knee to the guts hurts. Yes an uppercut hurts. They just didnt have the balance-removing properties that I look for when I use my taijutsu offensivly. A shikanken to the solar plexus works a lot better than a normal punch does for the purposes that I use. A normal boxing punch would work better for a boxer, since the follow up to a punch in boxing, is more than likely another punch, while mine is either getting away, or throwing them on their ass
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2006
  16. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Because karate punches aren't as good. Hence why the kyokushinkai karateka who entered k1 had to do boxing training.

    Depends on how far you go.

    No, but a ninjutsuka (I hesitate to say ninja) might have studied boxing by now and proven his superior technique in the ring. Until he does so, I'll be a bit cynical of an art that claims to have superior punching technique than an ancient art that gets constantly pressure tested and is about punching technique above all else.

    No, it would still be boxing. Boxing is a competitive sport. They are not forbidden from using punches from other styles, it's just not a good idea. I also don't buy the argument about age, the changes in muay thai happened reasonably recently (around the 80s). They adopted boxing punches because some thai boxers like Ramon Dekkers who had also done a lot of boxing had devastating punching technique. They saw that boxing had a superior punching system and adopted it. Boxing would do the same if it was presented with a similar situation. When your only goal is winning, you don't let silly pride stop you from changing your methods.

    My definition is the force exerted on the target by the punch. However, if the definition of power is the point of contention here, then I maintain that it rests with the person making the claim in the first place to define what he's talking about. But as we've seen, Siphus doesn't really know.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2006
  17. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    So, as I thought, you don't know what you're talking about? By the way, a muay thai punch is not EXACTLY the same as a boxer's punch; while, as I said, they did adopt western punching techniques, they modified it a bit to suit muay thai, and one of the main differences is that you don't put so much bodyweight into it, which enables you to defend against leg kicks more easily.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2006
  18. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Good for what?

    I happen to think a Shinden Fudo punch is dam good for close work or when working in restricted clothing. Couldn't see me trying in a boxing match though. Hmm although maybe, think the gloves would screw me up though :D

    What is the difference between of boxing punch and a Karate punch?

    Why aren't all the Karateka doing Boxing punches in their comps? or heck even thier art as a whole?

    Take me through the dynamics of a boxing punch and it's purpose within the art.

    Whilst you're at it talk me thought the purpose of boxing?

    Well I'm glad you kep away from the N word as no serious exponent would call themselves that unless it was in jest.

    You don't get it do you? :bang: Our Taijutsu is not the same as a Boxers! The way we strike is part of our movment if a Boxer were to strike like we do then they would be doing X-Kan Taijutsu! You can't just take the striking out of our art and stick it in another, this is where we get to it, unless you've trained in what we do you wont get what I'm on about sorry and I'm not being derogatory there.

    I'm sorry but I have real trouble with the argument of well if it was that good a boxer would use it! Do they stop training and look at another art everytime they see one? Or do they contiune to perfect what they are good at and what works for them with regards to their goals? I'd think if they were to keep going off looking at other arts they'd never get decent at the one they are training in!

    In fact can you show me a boxer who has looked at Taijustu striking as a viable alternative to what they do in the ring?

    What we do is misunderstood for a start. I'd like to know how many Pro Boxers are fully aware of what we do and how we train, not many I bet! But then even if one did they'd probably look at it and go "oh nice enough but wont be any good for me"

    Why aren't punches from another style a good idea?
  19. Taff

    Taff The Inevitable Hulk

    Boxing is a professional sport.

    People in professional sports will look *everywhere* to get an advantage. That's just the way it is! If Ninjitsu* punches really were relevant in boxing, someone would have cottoned on to it by now.
    As it happens, they're not. Why is this? Is it because they are inherently ineffective in combat, or is it that they just cannot work in a boxing structure? I don't know.

    * You could actually substitute almost any common martial art in there instead of Ninjutsu.
  20. GojuKJoe

    GojuKJoe Valued Member

    I'm pretty sure Tim said punches from another style are a good idea if they're better, not a bad idea.

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