Why if I study karate and I get beat does karate suck?

ah now that's the question isn't it

 

...touche.....touche indeed...

 

I still believe you'll find exactly what Ninjutsu does in many other arts. Theres far more to boxing punches than just feints and counters, to take boxing as the example.

The bottom line for me is it felt arrogant to say punching styles could not be compared because one does "more". Like it has some sort of intellectual advantage!

 

To be honest, I don't think Siphus argues that Ninjutsu does "more" with its punches, rather than people assuming that aiming for a KO is a "weakness" and "unrealistic".

Because when you KO someone, it usually means that you could also slowly kill them if you wanted, only you're showing more restraint and control.

"Just" aiming for KOs is nothing to be ashamed of.

 

er to a degree I think you do, this is where I see a lot of the difficulties Siphus comes up against are coming from. Punching mechanics and purpose can be different between arts they may share principles but the approach can be different.

Siphus approaches these subjects with a Ninpo mind set. He has certain concepts and ideas in his head which make perfect sense to him as he has trained their application and works with them on a regular basis.

For example:

He could say that he uses striking in a direction to alter structure and affect kuzushi and so control/shape the Kukan. Now I know what he would be on about would you?

I think we spend so much time thinking and talking in "ninja" speak that we forget how to communicate what we are on about with those who don’t' practice our art.

 

I agree I don't look at it as doing more just being different but it does help to have an understanding of the two style being compared or if not that at least use analogy when comparing.

Hmm this ones for Siphus

Can we compare/contrast the punching between Gyokko Ryu and Shiden Fudo Ryu? Do they use the same principles and where do they differ? On the one hand you have a natural pendulum motion generating the power in conjunction with the hips and on the other you have hips spine and footwork working in a different manner.

Spirals/wave compared to Pendulum.

 

How does this seperate ninjas from other martial arts?

All martial arts have their separate lingos.
eg BJJ with its rubber guards, butterfly guards, x-guards, kimuras, dudas, omoplatas, mata leaos etc etc

Wing Chun: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48088

Having separate concepts and terminologies does effects almost every martial art.

 

My point was that yes maybe you do need some experience and to be in the flow to understand what Siphus was on about. He's working with a different Operating system and that is why he comes up against conflict.

What you've listed is technique based yes? Guards and strikes and such. Now when Siphus is talking he's probably got some wacky Ninpo concept zooming round his head and is looking at how it applies to the debate.

You talk of guards and I see Kamae and manipulation of Kukan. You discuss technique and I see the concepts at work. It just comes from working with a different operating system. Nothing right or wrong just different.

You've listed a lot of tecniques in that thread but that's not really what I'm on about. My point is aimed more at the concpets that form the base of Siphus's appraoch.

It is a different art not better or whatever but different, bloody frustrating too at times, I will go out on a limb here and say that it is different to a lot of other arts discussed here and for that reason IMHO you do need some experience in it if you want to discuss it. Which was ultimately my point in my response to NaughtyKnight as he wanted to know why there was the trouble discussing Ninjutsu IMO it's because unless you have a grasp of the concpets at work then it's very difficult to discuss. If I remember Siphus made a point about how strikes are used. Now for example unless you know what Kukan is and how we aim to control it then how can you appreciate how striking may be involved in the process?

 

But every martial art has different concepts. I know Kempo (or is it Kenpo has an absolute ton of them), Wing Chun has some strange ones, so I still don't really see your point. Yes, those were a list of techniques. I guess they were not relevant to the discussion, but never mind.
As for "seeing" concepts, Wing Chun is often touted as a concept based system as well.

Experience makes seeing certain things a lot easier, but it really should be possible to discuss punching without this requirement.

Is Kukan "Spacetime"?

 

Hell what you asking me for I don't know It's a load of balls really er so I've been told havn't found my balls yet though

 

Yep it should!

I was more getting at why Siphus seems to get in all these er "debates" and always seems to come off worse :cry:

So is a punch a punch? er erm er

Can you give me a run down on a Wing Chun punch?

Actually just realised I don't know this! What strikes are used in BJJ? Are we talking MMA type stuff ?

 

I'm actually with Spooky on this.

Each and every one of us wants to label things in a manner that we personally understand. We've developed, through our experiences, various methods by which different ideas will "Sound Right" to us.

This sounds like common sense...and it is, but you'd be surprised at how difficult it is at times to realize that our preferred method of "labeling" does not or can not apply to certain situations.

For instance, let us pretend that I'm a 38 year old frail woman that has spent 20 years studying compliant Aikido. Some of my friends want me to jump in a ring and do some sparring at a boxing club.

Before I get in the ring, I stop and ask the coach, "How do I stop from getting knocked out?"

--How would you answer that? You could say "keep your guard up", or "stay aggressive", or "roll with a punch"...but will any of that really make sense or hold a candle to actually experiencing someone trying to punch you in the face as hard as possible? How would you explain this to a petite woman that has only practiced compliant Aikido?

What if she asked, "Is getting punched like getting thrown as an uke?"

Coach, "Well...no"

Aikidoka, "Why not? We're both feeling impact, getting our space manipulated, and working with an opponent...right?"

Am I making any sense? I haven't had any coffee today, so I'm not really sure.

I believe this is really a big issue with Taijutsu, and causes a lot of the fuss and argument. Instructors with decades of experience come on here and talk about "Shaping Space" and "Fading Perception"...which makes a lot of sense to them, but probably means nothing to many other practitioners.

Imagine the look on the aikido woman's face if a pro boxer said, "I can take a full power punch to the face and cause it to slide off the side of my head with no effect." That actually isn't a big deal for an experienced boxer...but the aikido-ka would probably laugh and consider it a joke.

Wow, I seriously need to take a lesson from Hemingway about brevity.

Essentially, just because styles are listed as "Martial Arts" does not mean they easily translate from one to another...and that is ok.

What is not ok is if people try and force something to fit into their preconceived "labeling system" if it isn't meant to wear the label they propose to affix to it.

There, I'm done.

 

Siphus, wasn't your original point re: the punching argument that taijutsu punches are more powerful because you put more weight into them? If so, why do they need to be more powerful than boxing ones if you're only using them as a distraction?

You already admitted that you're unable to explain it and thus justify your argument, so why are you still debating this?

 

Haha, i tried to get out pages ago!

As for the boxing punches, I said taijutsu punches, at the most basic kihon form, have more body weight behind them than a boxing punch.

And in reply to why "no other ninjers are here to help" is cuz they arent stupid enough to try and argue with you guys. I on the other hand...................

 

Haha, Siphus, how can you try and fail to stop posting in a thread? You simply stop doing it, no one is forcing you.

You obviously have never trained in boxing before then, and if you have, you were doing it wrong.

 

Then why didn't you?

It seems to me that you're intent on proving your point, yet you're not prepared to handle logical debate on the topic.

 

cuz as much as i try and get rid of my ego it always comes back.

BTW, heres Sonshu:

This was in a thread for "most powerful punch"

Now, this is only SEMI relevant, but I just wanted to show you that even Sonshu (who disagrees with me all the time) states that a taijutsu punch, along with boxing's hook are some of the most powerful he's experienced. Again, not a fact, just semi-relevant

 

Thats all well and good but! Unless we use some kind of universal fighting terms then its a bit difficult to have any kind of meaningful debate...

I could stay in my own little section, but I find the whole point of being on map is to talk to people with different styles.

 

Since when is the debate on the terminology used in martial arts? I think the original argument is so fargone that it has become a legend, the secrets of which are taught only to the most devote monks of the monastery on the moon.

Now, Siphus said that a taijutsu punch is more powerful than a boxing punch. He used no complicated terminology there. He simply stated that it has more bodyweight behind it. With a taijutsu punch there is leaning associated with the punch.

Boxing Punch = Hips + Arm Strength

Ninjutsu Punch = Hips + Arm Strength + Slight Lunge

No?

*Puts the finishing touches on his sand-bag bunker*

 

Right, so, where in that quote did Sonshu say that boxing punches aren't as powerful or use less bodyweight?