why I love qigong

@ Holyheadjch - I'm not trying to 'convert' you mate. It doesn't concern me what you do or what you think in the grand scheme of things, and hypotheticals are wasted on me.

FWIW, I think western science has it's limitations as well.

From the link you gave - [FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]"Conclusions Low back pain improved after acupuncture treatment for at least 6 months. Effectiveness of acupuncture, either verum or sham, was almost twice that of conventional therapy.[/FONT]" ... as it happened to my view, that's a good result.

Just communicating that I did appreciate the OP (Taiji Lou) for his candid sharing of what he felt was a great experience.

P.S. thanks for the links btw!

 

I agree, but it does point to the effectiveness of acupuncture being unrelated to qi and since acupuncture is so often held up as evidence of the existence of qi, I think it's relevant to the wider discussion of qi and its place in traditional chinese medicine as a whole.

 

While I readily accept the placebo effect might have influenced the sham acupuncture group, it still certainly doesn't prove that the placebo effect was in play on the verum group.

 

Prove, no, but it seems highly likely.

 

Not at all! The only certainty that exists here is that the result is inconclusive. There is no explicit or implied bias.
As the findings stand, any bias toward a likelihood of relief being only the result of the placebo effect is possibly the result of our own prejudice to accept or not.

 

I never stated that the placebo effect was the only factor, but as both the genuine and fake acupuncture elicited similar responses, it seems likely that the placebo effect was the predominant factor.

Do you believe that the sham group experienced a placebo effect whilst the verum group didn't? Good luck explaining that one.

Would you be arguing this point if it was a drug trial where the placebo group reported similar improvements to the drug test group?

 

I've periodically posted links to interesting studies that I've found. I've taken the time to read a few books and browse the net for scientific journals regarding the subject.

Again, if you are interested I have posted the links in other threads.

 

I don't recall ever seeing a study supporting the existence of Qi that wasn't authored by either Chinese scientists or scientists with a clear conflict of interests.

When a repeatable experiment has been tabled and verified, I'll be willing to update my knowledge. Until then, it's all poppycock.

 

Alright, for the sake of argument, say that using the same study we were testing the efficacy of Aspirin (instead of acupuncture).
Indeed I would argue that a noted placebo effect in the sham aspirin group doesn't prove that Aspirin doesn't work on the verum group. It doesn't disprove it either. It is quite likey that placebo also played a part in the verum group ... but there is no logical connection to prove that Aspirin didn't work as intended (in fact we know that Aspirin works pretty much as designed which is why it works as an example in the hypothetical to test the study - despite that I generally find hypotheticals to be a nuisance lol). As you've mentioned placebo is only one factor involved among many.

Interesting though that the placebo group didn't fair quite as well as the verum group (in the original study) ... to me that would indicate that there is something other or in addition to placebo at work here (in a positive way).

I think the study is poorly designed if it was explicitly designed to prove whether acupuncture works (or not). I don't recall if that was the study's motivation or not and am not in a position to check at the moment.

... and although I don't think it's what you meant, ultimately everything (including the vaunted science method) is wonderfully and mind bogglingly poppycock ... vbg

 

If the aspirin didn't work significantly better than placebo, it wouldn't pass its trials.

It was a single blind trial, you have to account for biases, which are far more likely to lead to better accounts from the verum group. There might be more at play, but I think this study shows, quite clearly, that acupuncture has a very significant psychological component. And just so you don't have to post it again, I agree, an improvement is an improvement is an improvement, but that doesn't mean anything from a qi point of view.

 

End of the road for me

My friend, I've reached the end of my motivation to continue, nor am I familiar with the requirements and expectations surrounding single blind trial's ... must be getting old lol!

Very true. I think that any dedication to a paradigm requires a psychological component.

You are too kind, and of course!

Cheers!

 

Hmmm.

It seems that the modern science is unable to influence very many opinions. I've actually read studies that were conducted by Chinese (via the TCM University of Shanghai), a study regarding subtle energy and bioluminesance that was conducted in Moscow, and another study regarding Polymorphonuclear leukocytes that was conducted in China. These are the studies I have read.

However, meditation is the only thing we really need for verification. Meditate!!!! It does the body worlds of good!

If you meditate with sincerity and dedication, I'm sure you will find some kind of clarity regarding this subject. Until then, there is nothing that anyone can say.

You say there is no evidence..... or you say there is some but is too close to poppycock to be trusted. I think that's fantastic, actually. People who are easy to snow are followers, not leaders. It takes leaders to delve into their conciousness and find the answers to the questions we try so hard to know... or not know.... or pretend we don't care about... or pretend we DO care about.....

 

There's a good reason why all of the 'conclusive' studies take place in China - TCM is a matter of significant national Pride in China and there are serious incentives for carrying out research that adds credibility to TCM.

It's like reading Climate Change studies that have been funded by Oil companies.

Keep on following.

 

I am very much interested.

Please post links-sites here

 

Recent studies conducted by the mind and life institute (a group of scientists associated with the Dalai Lama) have recently conducted experiments on groups of Buddhist monks who had logged over 1000 hours of meditation.

What they found is that when a person meditates on a certain feeling (e.g. compassion), that their brain activity mirrors that of the same person performing an act that is applicable to that feeling. Additionally, for those experienced in meditation, their brains continue to have that same activity even after they've meditated. It's good evidence that people are actually capable of making permanent, meaningful changes to their brain just by meditating on the right stuff.

Bio luminescence refers to fire flies and stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioluminescence

 

How true. :hat:

 

Ummmm.... it's actually not true. Only three of the studies that I've come across have taken place in China. I've come across ten, in total.

PS: just came back from another rivetting round of taiji.

 

Then post the links. If you are so sure that the studies are credible, post the freaking studies so the rest of us can marvel at your research abilities.

 

here's something I came across recently.

http://www.physorg.com/news198835017.html

 

None of which requires the existence of 'chi'.