Why HEMA So Stereotypical On Nations EG Rapier in Romance Countries and most 2 Handed Swords German?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by SlamDunkerista, Dec 9, 2022.

  1. A trend notice is that every time a video is done on Two Handed Styles and not just Zweihander but "Longswords (anything longer than an arming sword but stillshorter than a rapier) are almost always referring to German masters on a typical HEMA video on Youtube.

    While so much Rapier texts are from Spanish French, and Italian masters and not just on Youtube and HEMA sites-just do a quick googling right now and you'll see the instant results are texts from France, Italy, and Spain!

    On the otherhand its often complain British swordplay esp English have a dearth of available source. But yet so much fo the Youtube Channels put a big emphasis on Medieval Arming Sword, Sabers, and Naval Swords like Spadoon and if we are lucky the Basket Hilt Sword.

    SO I have to ask why its a pattern that HEMA studying different nations overly emphasized some types or weapons? I mean why very little stuff on Prussian Bayonet and Saber fencing for example?

    So much reconstructed British stuff is Naval or Cavalry and despite the Victorians believing big heavy swords are for dumb buffoons there is a lack of focus on the stereotypical elegant and skillful rapier! Why is there little focus on spear fighting n France despite the fact even by Napoleon's time Pole Arms were still the main weapons of close combat for French soldiers?!


     
  2. Honestly no replies? When I made this post I was so busy irl especially with searching out college scholarships that I didn't read the responses to any of the other posts yet I made months prior because I was just that decked with real serious matters. The only reason I even psoted the thread about statistics injuries was because I might have forgotten tht suvject and same with this. Forall the posters being derisive of previous topics, I'd expect at least this one would be a subject everyone can agree with as fascinating one..............

    Especially since a few youtube search immediately reveals practically almost everything in OP.
     
  3. Nachi

    Nachi Valued Member Supporter

    I am sorry for the lack of replies. I think it is an interesting topic, but... I just don't know anything about this subject...
     
  4. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Well, you aren't exactly being polite and encouraging in your conversations in other threads. That doesn't exactly encourage members to want to engage further. I would politely suggest revisiting your tone in other threads and considering if you are really having a conversation others would want to participate in?

    Also, a topic one finds interesting may or may not peak interest in others. I think we have all at one point or another started a thread and been disappointed others were not interested. Such is the way in forums. :) Eh, it happens. Also, sometimes I have posted something not expecting much of a reply, and it really takes off. It is hard to predict.
     
    axelb likes this.
  5. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    So to respond to your private message:

    "SlamDunkerista Also for all your cherrypicking (esp you ignored actual source I linked directly from Barton-Wright and other folks) and especially for someone with a fencing avatar, I find it rather disconcerting and even outright hypocritical you never responded to my HEMA question I posted back in December. If you really are intelligent as you think you are, why did you never answer that? I thought you are into historical stuff?"

    Because other redditors have already responded to you months ago seeing as you spammed stuff there as well, and other redditors covered most of the bases and issues.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/zgnjym/why_are_the_overwhelming_amount_of_surviving_two/

    I was about to add something myself, but then I saw who posted it and thought better as I knew any knowledge would be utterly wasted, and I have better time responding to other HEMA and Sport Fencing Instructors who actually know their stuff and can back up their knowledge from lived experience and long term research.

    But considering the way you have responded to other people on this forum, I will let you in on a secret:

    No-one but No-one owes you a response , least of all the people on this forum many of us who have been instructors in their chosen fields for longer than you have been alive.

    But know this. Most of people here on MAP are of a certain age and we will let your tantrums slide or just ignore you. Perhaps I should have been less sarcastic in my original post. But if you treat anyone on the HEMA Sub-reddit in the same way, many who are younger and just starting out, I will let quietly show Hussard and the other Mods your posts here . I think you can imagine what their reaction will be.

    This is the last time I will communicate with you.
     
    axelb likes this.
  6. Man oh man le elitism..... Amusing considering for someone proclaiming to be an expert you seem far more concerned about rambling on about personal dislike than actually talking about the subject.. Ok since you are so an expert, why not explain about why Saber fighting not only somewhat exists in Latin America today through machete lineages (as well as the Carribean).... But some of the old traditional 2% as well as reconstructionist schools still manage to keep the tradition alive in contrast to much of Europe (outside very small niches like Shakespearan theater, and cinema, etc).


    To the point (even if hilariously inaccurate) stuff like Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman and other pre-MMA craze and mass exportation of Eastern styles will show the default fighting weapon of Hispanic and Brazil as rapier and other blades associated with fencing. Especially in actual Telenovela and other LatAm pop media (as lots of historical setting s like Ana De La Reguera's first breakout show Infeno Grande). Even stuff shown in more later times like the early 20th century wars you'll have no difficulty finding for example a Criole officer using sabers and occasionally a rapier in stuff taking place in for example the Banana Wars.

    Considering the first major superheroine is shown knowing fencing..... Mor ethe double irony considering irl Lynda Carter's mama is from Mexico (or at least grew up in whats most probably a Tejano community).


    I mean with how you act so all high with your expertise, do you even know about Tejanos and other groups as a bonus question?
     
  7. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

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  8. Ain't passive aggressiveness at all. But a take that at how elitists people in the MA culture can be. Esp since on another forum some "expert" in Savate holds a grudge just because I pointed on how his comments in relation to Savate are completely off the mark and despite not being into boxing nor British this pretentious Frenchie got so PO'ed as though I insulted his mom... Just because I pointed to him (as someone from the home of boxing and actually follows the sport myself) that his assertion that British boxing is superior to BOxe Francaise basing it on 19th century brawls and ignoring just how massively different boxing from that time is different from the first gloved era of the 1900s and even something like the Ali-Frazier-Foreman era already has massive changes from the current modern era that making style comparisons that apply today is sorta a bit inaccurate.


    The self-righteous dude from France even blocked him when I showed him proof that 19th century boxers punched different from modern boxers (on top of not using gloves until Marquis Queenberry) and also showing him videos of the differences in styles in boxing and the rock paper scissors of boxing style counters. He acutally unblocked me and left one more insult daring me to meet him from France so he can whoop my but... All simply because I showed him a vid of INoki giving Ali difficulty with kicks.


    Quite ironic considering he was bashing other martial artists ont he forum for overestimating Savate and landing nonstop criticisms on Savate and boasting boxing's superiority not only to Savate but other styles (despite the fact he claims to be a Savateur who loves Savate withh all his heart)...... Despite so much inaccuracie son his blogs alone about Savate including barebones basic knowledge like how plenty of French commoners worked blue collar jobs at the time Savate was being formed and thus a good number of them would be wearing heavy work boots in their daily lives. Forget the fact his comments about boxing trouncing sSavate and being the "supreme" mainstream style si so rife with horribly wrong things any boxing fans would cringe at or hell complete misunderstanding of lots of stuff of boxing that even non-boxers would undersand like how wearing gloves completley change the entire game of fighting.


    See thats precisely why. Nothing to do with passive aggressiveness and Botta Dritta's demeanor is precisely like that ignorant self-acclaimed (as well as massively lazy) Savateur and other martial artists that seem to have this gigantic ego on the intenret (as well as lacking plain common sense on top of being darn ignorant of other subjects not directly related to martial arts but still bring up great pointers like how dancing helps so much with learning footwork to dodge and eevade and even go on t he offensive).

    This can be seen o liek int he other discussion where posters who never even seen all of The Avengers (nevermind they don't even know a sequel and other Expanded Universe stuff exists) are so ignorant of Roger LaFon'ds involvement in the show and Savate bieng one of the showcased style and only assuming all The Avengers as well as the James Bond actors ever trained in was in oriental styles like Judo. Soemthing that can immediately debunked by the fact a Savateur was one of the leads of the Avengers sequels (well not exactly Savate but she's a specialist in Ftench apache methods) and how all of the James Bond movies features moves from different styles =.

    I mean Die Another Day had Brosnan freaking fighting with Knightly longswords and rapiers for Christ's sake! As well as Connery and Robert Shaw (doubt much people even know him ont his forum) not choerographing in the traditional manner (not even using oriental moves or even boxing) but simply sorta going at each other like though in ar eal brawl (though of course done in a step manner to prevent injuries). To the point some of the blows thrown were even real as some points of the grappling sequences). IN the final oneoff in From Russia With Love. (I wonder hiow many are even aware of where Grant meets Bond in person for the first time in this board)?
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2023
  9. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Wait , you think movie fu is real ?
     
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  10. The moves may be choreographed and made flashier for screen but a lot of stage fighting directly takes from real combat systems for TV shows and movies and other popular media.

    For example all the cast of Drillis Ertugrul learned how to wield real Turkish swords in months of preparation before filming the first episode on top of learning horseriding and how to move in contemporary clothes of the early Ottomans and on.

    Telenovelas like Bolivr comonly has members learn fencing of the time period. So even something like Pueblo Grande Inferno (spelled this wrong) willl have someone who learned the basics despite being stories focused on drama and romance with primarily female leads like Ana De La Reguera (this was her breakout role BTW in Latin America a decade before she made it big in the USA when she starred alongside Black Jack in Nacho Libre).


    And thats just another example of how so many "hardcore" martial artists have this strange air of aristocracy and amour propre while not exactly unread on lots of other stuff including things directly involving MA.


    Cinema and popular media in general being a prime example. How so many veteran practitioners can be so unaware of how Soul Calibur showcases various historical stylesis just staggering. After all Siegfried's movelist was directly taken from German stuff and Astaroth basically show cases typical techniques for historical use of halberd/heavy war axe/ giant warhammer/Macebell class objects. You even have quite old stuff on super primtiive technology like the original Neverwinter Nights computer game by AOL featuring actual stances and attacks from HEMA.


    This not counting the bunch of comic books esp Indie ones have authors who are enthusiastic about this stuff and how Japan's comic industry is so full of stuff from various historical time periods and settings that showcases styles. Watch Le Chevalier D'Eon to see an example of how unaware so many martial artists of how pop media have been getting accurate fighting onscreen for since as early as silent film era even on stuff as low brow as animation.

    Sadly just like that arrogant Frenchman from that Savate forum on Reddit, the obvious laziness and vanity of so many participants in MA subculture exhibits so much ignorant not just on indirect off topics tuff like comic book drafting panels and lower class violence esp among blue collar types in the poorest communities..... But as that self-righteous Frenchmen show, so many MA folks show ignorance and super overt laziness in even researching something as bare as the different boxing styles and the rock-paper-scissor counter elements that make up a core of boxing theory.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2023
  11. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Mod warning: Let's keep to this forum and stop bringing up discussions elsewhere. Thanks!

    Non-Mod comment: It is hard to take your arguments seriously when you use movies, popular media, video games and now comic books as a source for your points. This seems to be a trend on here lately. Not differentiating between movie-fu and reality.:rolleyes:Are there real bits of martial arts in movies? Sure. Does that make it a good reference source? Nope!
     
  12. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    I love how John Wick consistently uses Kote gaeshi , but I’m not about to claim him to be some kind of badass Aikidoka , or even try to argue the merits of Aikido.
    I imagine that technique has been chosen for its visual effect rather than its usefulness , and that’s a what you need to understand when any kind of Moviefu as reference.
     
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  13. Which I already stated in my earlier posts......


    ANd that still doesn't change the fact aht there are plenty of media with well grounded settings that portray completely accurate martial arts....

    I mean has how come nobody ever brings up Hellish Quart? You know the computer game that did so much research into HEMA and even Middle Eastern styles that even actual HEMA professionals like Scholagladiatoria, Lindybeiege and Skallagram of Youtube fame have posted videos praising the authenticity of the swordfighting?


    DId not anybody here (since this forum has a bunch of experts on fencing styles) ever watched The Duelist?


    Thats my point my pal. When real professionals with actual degrees brig heaps on praises on these stuff yet quite oddly MA message boards never bring them up hell lots of Netizens on these places are often even completely unaware of them despite apparently having practised sword reconstruction for dor most their lives.
     
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    "that even actual HEMA professionals like Scholagladiatoria, Lindybeiege and Skallagram of Youtube fame have posted videos praising the authenticity of the swordfighting?"

    Youtube presenters are not "hema professionals,"
    They use popular media references to increase the amount of clicks they get.

    Their content choice is, in the main driven by YouTube's algorithm.

    Real life are not movies.

    I've breifly trained (attended a two day seminar) with one of John wicks fight planners, who also used to be an AKA MMA Coach. He's produced world champions, and helped shape John wicks fighting style.
    The fight techniques were chosen to help build his character, and add to the story. It's not because kote geashi is a high percentage technique in gun fights.

     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2023
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    The thing I'm findng most annoying isn't the tone of the posting, the screeds of barely coherent rambling about so many different things and non-sequitors. Although obviously they are annoying.
    It's the blanket assumptions we don't know who Joanna Lumley is or we've never watched any films or played any games.
    We have. We just don't put much stock into them being these great bastions of untapped martial knowledge.
    Which is a shame as in this thread is a germ of something. There likely are old films and media that have interesting things to illuminate around martial arts.
    But it's getting lost in the terrible attitude with which that information is being presented.
    And of course the private messages aren't helping either. They can stop.
     
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  16. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Mod Note: If anyone is getting PM's after asking for them to stop, please notify the moderator team. This is true at any time. Thanks! I am pretty sure there is a report function in PMs. Although I need to double check that.
     
  17. Not only have you not actually even read the previous replies (I mean did you miss the part about Drillis Ertugrul actually hiring real historians and sword masters in TUrkey?)

    On top of how so many MA folks dismiss not just movies but entertainment in general and even people who genuinely love the subject and are trying to help out the general public learn more.

    Lets go start out that while artistic license is mad efor storytelling's sake, people like Riyoka Ikeda not only are college educated but they spent lots of hours doing their research for their masterpieces. Ikeda for example read tons of books ont he French Revolution and took plenty of classes on top of even interviewing some scholars from France as she continued wiring Rose of Versailles and its sequel Napoleon Heroics. Hence stuff shows so many subtleties unknown about Marie ANtoinette like the allged rumors of lesbianism that became a gigantic attack on her reputation and Napoleonic sniping and even accurate fight scenes where not just the rapier is use but unarmed moves.

    See thats the exact ingorant attitude I'm referring to. Not only do you barely watch any movies, so many don't know comics at all or haven't played even super popular stuff like Ryse Son of Rome (hint actual stuff were directly taken from Roman and early Dark Ages reconstructions)/ NOt to even mention people on the WWW in MMA and swordplay and other fight places are out of touch with the res of the world like the fact DUzyatan was a big star of Turkish game shows years before he auditioned for Drillis Ertugrul (which since so many here don't know about it, was the highest rated TUrkish Adventure drama).


    I mean don't you know there was a third movie in Michael York's Musketeer trilogy? I take if you never seen York's far lesser known hits?

    And your dismissal of more mainstream sources is the perfect representation of this attitude.. You proclaim to be so much experts, why aren't you writing books? Or running a host show? Criticize them all you will but it shows because Skallagram and other folks are able to actually use their expertise (and help the general populace wile we ar at it).

    I mean when someone who's sole focus is not historical martial arts but modern RBSD like Mac MacYoung (who has a history degree too to boot) is saying a lot of stuff that support Scholagladiatoria, it shows how often out of touch people in the MA subcultures are wwith the rest of society esp the general populace.

    Except not only did you ask who she was but outraiht said you never heard of her.


    DOn't try to backtrack. Afterall practically everyone one here didn't even know The Avengers had a sequel until I pointed out their incorrect assumptions that the cast only trained in Japanese styles and Savate was not at all taught in the stage training.


    And it also shows becuase you don't evne know what Drillis Ertugrulis. HINT: The MOST EXPORTED Turkish TV show of all time is.


    You still also haven't replied about Maria Felix. You say you watched a good amount of cinema and TV< then explain to me whats the significance of her to Central and South America?

    Have you even seen Alain's biggest hit in China?

    And to go back to Dead_Pool.....

    You are aware Lindybeiege and other mainstream HEMA guys all have degrees on the subject right? ON top of all getting experts from other fields all the time for hteir videos? Its obvious you actually haven't watched their videos much because you'd know that for example a Jian expert video was invited one time for an episode. Or the tons of sources Scholagladiatoria quotes.


    For someone claiming to be into HEMA, an this is starting to remind me of that self-proclaimed (wannabe) Savateur Frenchie!
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2023
  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    So primary sources of information are better then secondary sources of information, and secondary is better then entertainment based on secondary sources, does that make sense.

    You seem to be insisting the reverse of the above is true, which would be logically incorrect.

    Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary Sources

    You don't get good at martial arts by watching TV, you don't get good at history by watching TV, you don't get good at logical thinking by watching TV.
     
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  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Ah, now I understand.

    Too lazy to train, wants sitting in front of the telly eating Cheetos to count.
    Not right.

    I know people with Archaeology degrees. Guess how much they know about historical fighting styles.

    Lindybeige even says so himself, when he's not denying human causes of climate change.
     
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  20. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong



    No need to back track. Because what I actually did was sneak in a reference to a program she was in called "absolutely fabulous".
    And pretty much every British person noticed I did that.
    But you didn't notice...for some reason...which is weird as you, apparently, know much more about her than we do.
     

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