Why has British fighting culture since the 19th Century Has been stereotyped as being"Fists Only"?

How many fights did you get into?

How many traditional British wrestling clubs did you visit?

 

Now, there were thriving wrestling cultures in certain parts of the isles before WWI. I had great, great uncles who were Cumbrian wrestlers.

However, by the 1960s that had effectively died out, save for some tiny pockets of people keeping some traditions alive (barely).

Diana Rigg was doing Judo and Karate (or actor's approximations thereof) on screen, not some traditional British fighting style. Same with Roger Moore or whoever else you can think of.

As much as I would love 1960s TV heroes defeating evil with Cornish shin kicking, it never happened.

 

There has long been a cultural bias toward "gentlemen" settling things with their fists. Like most cultural biases, this comes from the fact that gentlemen learned to fight with their fists, so anyone who knew how to fight otherwise was "cheating". Much like the reaction to Royce Gracie in the first UFC.

The British Isles operated on a top-down culture leftover from feudalism. The aristocracy, and later merchant classes, dictated social rules. Industrialisation and increased communication killed off many rural traditions, from the 18th to 20th Century, and the few folk wrestling styles that survive today are kept alive by small groups of enthusiasts rather than thriving competition scenes.

 

“These combats generally collect crowds and each crowd instantly assumes to itself the arbitration and the guardianship of honour. The combatants are excited to fight and while they have the power to strike or stand, but should either of them offend the laws of honour, if one should be down before the other strike before he rises, or should he kick, or bite, or do anything but fairly box, the mob would interfere and scout him as a coward”


“The first two times I was in Paris I witnessed violent disputes. In some there was hair pulling, but not much thought of using the clenched fist. I more than once sawboys sparring at la Porte de St Denis. Those efforts were indeed feeble. To an Englishman their awkwardness excited not alarm but laughter,”


Germany. Holland. Netherlands. France. Paris
Thomas Holcroft · 1804




“The french lad eschews all such demonstrations as ungentlemanly, but if provoked beyond human patience he will avenge himself, not by his fists, but by biting, pulling off hair by the handfuls, by scratches and kicks, and if the feet are armed with sabots, a kick is the most dangerous form of attack”

A fortnight's tour; or, How to visit France and Belguim for ten guineas
By Robertson Noel · 1859



“A boxing we will go

Italians stab their friends behind

In the darkest shades of night

But Britons are bold and kind

And box their friends by Light

The sons of france their pistols use

Pop pop and the have done

But Britons with the hands will bruise

And scorn away to run

Throw pistols, poignards, swords aside

And all such deadly tools

Let boxing let be britains pride

The science of their schools

Since boxing is such a manly game

And Britons recreation

By boxing we will raise our fame

‘Bove any nation”


Before proceeding to our genuine english boxing, We must just mention the french savate, of which we have heard so much of late. We have seen in practised and taught in the salle d’armes, and for it as a system of boxing, we have the profoundest contempt: as also for that execrable custom of striking upwards with the knee when at close quarters, an atrocity for which would like to see the man horse whipped on the spot

Every Boy's Book
A Complete Encyclopaedia of Sports and Amusements
1868





A Boxing match is a degrading and demoralising spectacle, but it is play compare to the french art of kicking, In the worst parts of Paris where it is practised by the lower classes it is ferocious brutality of the worst kind.


John Bull's Neighbor in Her True Light
Being an Answer to Some Recent French Criticisms
By Brutal Saxon · 1884




The British never had as a people never had a cultural prejudice against kicking of any kind. It's absolutely just nonsense peddled by metropolitan elites in their shining cities, unlike those valiant football 'hooligans' who knew the true art of kicking.

Hooliganism:

Earliest first mention of hooliganism:

London newspapers in April and May 1894 carried reports of a case at Southwark Police Court in South London where it was said that Charles Clarke, aged 19, charged with assault on police, was

“the king of a gang of youths known as the ‘Hooligan Boys’ “. [1]

The gang had attended a music hall and created a disturbance which resulted in the Police being called. At the later remand hearing a newspaper repeated that allegation, but referred to the “O’Hooligan Boys”


Boy. I guess that that particular weekend the football was off and rather than spend their endless disposable income and travel across the uk to the biggest firm in the country or practising kicking in their secret savate like dojos, they decided to do jumping spinning kicks on which ever vaulderville peformer that didn't agree with theie musixal taste



The label "football hooliganism" first began to appear in the English media in the mid-1960s,[11] leading to increased media interest in, and reporting of, acts of disorder. It has been argued that this, in turn, created a 'moral panic' out of proportion with the scale of the actual problem
Stott, C. and Pearson, G., 'Football Hooliganism: Policing and the War on the English Disease', 2007 London: Pennant Books


Wow. I guess those underground kicking clubs must have become really secret. Looks like Barton Wrights system was so devastating that he must have driven all those 189th century football hooligans underground!

 

Hah! Its obvious you not only not watched much popular media, you never seen much of the Avengers nevermind the lack of common sense!

You are aware that the sequel series' lead who lived in France during her time in France right? Or are you unfamiliar at all who Joanna Lumley is? Aren't you aware of Purdey's backstory? I bet you don't even know who Lumley played in the Avenger.

On top of the freaking James Bond novels mentioning Bond being trained in common European hand to hand combat systems at the time (which Savate would have been on the list). And don't get me started once I freaking actually point out to irl stuff outside the series.

In Memoriam: Roger Lafond (1913-2011) |

Thats just a Bartittsu organization not really specifically focusing on Savate. Even Bullshido brings it up.


End of an era: Roger Lafond, 1913-2011 - Bullshido - The Art of Fighting BS

There's at least a few blogs specifically more on French stuff (some beyond Savate) that mentions it.


Soits how freaking bvious you are so ignorant of mass popular media. Even my freaking Portuguese relatives knows of Savate despite not practising martial arts because of various Lupin TV shows and even modern pop media like La Boum series ( I bet you don't even know that series's star Sophie Marcreau would later become an important Bond girl-or that you don't even know what roles she plays because you never seen the James Bond movies). Or even the fact that Sophie's career goes far beyond her most famous international role in Bravehart.


Please your lack of mass entertainment shows you NEED TO CONSUME MORE MEDIA and stop limiting yourself to the martial arts subculture because its eschewing your views esp your so much outright BS inaccurate historical claims.

The simple fact you don't even know who Joanna Lumley iis let alone the character she plays on the Avengers already defeats her argument... Hint: Her major in college involves one of France's most prestigious fields and more importantly ehr backgroun involves the Apache.


Do you even know the name of the subseries she stars in within The Avengers franchise?

Also regarding your shin kicking comment, do you freaking lack common sense? Its not specifically Cornish kicking sports but the fact that the basic upwards vertical strikes of shinkicking and whatever games are freaking common sense. Even classmates t the Unihaveusedsome of the basic moves (which makes your accusation of me never being into a fight a hilarious one).

 

Its obvious you not only not got into bars much in your life (if any_ but you barely know anything about British fighting arts at all let alone the specifics of boxing and wrestling.

You are aware that Mike Tyson stated he wanted to kick Hollyfield during the fights he had right? On top of headbutting and elbowing and just fighting like a savage to get back at Hollyfield's dirty moves? The bitten ear Hollyfield got was something that wshouldn't surprise anyone who followed Tyson seriously nevermind even casual fans who otherwise aren't interested in boxing would know about from watching the two fights.

And within wrestling, its obvious you don't follow the Olympics nor do you understand the origins of WWE (I have a hunch you don't even know anything at all about professional wrestling). More on that latr when I reply to a specific post.

 

This post really show a complete lack of understanding of not just barebones British history (and general history period) but even m a bunch of other fields beyond martial arts like criminology.

Proving your argument in the last sentence as absolutely wrong (and it makes me wonder how much of a social life you actually have, I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't drank at bars but beyond that you on't even do niche nerdy pop culture like ho on the latest servers of EverQuest or even seen some of the latest time period dramas like The English Game or even national TV stuff ont he BBC like Downtown Abbey)............

Is the fact that Football is the most popular sport. Absolutely demolishes your horribly inaccurate claim that the British peasants blindly followed the higher classes (my god for someone claiming to b e abig professor on a bunch of subjects namely hisotry, I can't believe you made sucha BS notion that lacks so much nuances). Why isn't cricket the most popular game? That shows the nonsense in your post (very arrogantly middle class-which is another reason its so BS-you seem ignorant of how the Middle CLass was often held in disdain both by the poor and the rich in the UK esp the educated centr of middle Bourgeois).


But while we are it since I already mentioned sport..... Are you forgetting that rugby and cricket also came from a lot of outdoor games often played by children in the farms? You just defeated your argument already due to the fact that the upperclass freaking partake in games that originated from stuff played by the working class and often in rural communities.......


But lets go back specifically on wrestling. Do you even know about the origins of the WWE? Or even follow at all boxing? Its not just Mike Tyson, n ononesense dirty fighting tricks still exist in boxing that were common among the poor but scoffed by the the well to do classes. As can be seen by a pro fight that later got the supposed winner disqualified because bricks were found in his glove.

I mean since you claim to know so much about martial arts history...... Why do you ignore the fact that both professional wrestling and freestyle wrestling both come from catch wrestling in overall lineage? And that catch wrestling was an amalgamation of different local wrestling styles across not just Britain but even Ireland and Scotland?

Are you even aware of the fact that freestyle (which uses heavy leg techniques as I mentioned in the recent discussion I posted) is now the most practised wrestling styl in the world along with Greco-Roman? That so much of American wrestling esp school and collegiate are directly taken from freestyle rules and techniques?

That totally show the holes in your argument. That American school styles freaking use so many traditional British techues from so much old styles before the Olympics That the fact catch wrestling was the dominant philosophy (and still has a lot of surviving practitioners) which in turn morphed into freestyle (the curent dominant style in the UK) shows how freaking wrong your last sentences are (particularly the notion that Brits completely gave up on traditional local fighting styles because some snoby nobles told them to).


I mean modern professional wrestling all are taken from 19th century shows across Britain and the rest of Europe just before London Prize and Olympic styles became the status quo that lasts onto today...

You don't actually wrestle at all od you?

 

It makes me freaking wonder why so many martial artists are darn ignorant of not just freestyle and other Olympic wrestling but eveno f the WWE anprofessional wrestlinga s a whole?

Haven't you seen the recent contest on Fox News where one black guy takes out 4 people in a quick smooth fluid motion?

 

Your whole argument fails because not only did you ignore the Bartitsu website (which other Bartitsu internet clubs also have mentioned in passing) as well as general ignorance of not just Savate but French martial arts in general (on top of being completely unaware of 19th century fencing stuff which is freaking ironic considering your avatar)........ On top of being pedantic cherrypicking obbscure soures nobody cares about (that not even most academics inlcuding specialists on fighting and sports never heard off)...... ON top of so many modern brawls proving it absolutely wrong......But it freaking flies against the face of common sense....

Most of all its obvious you never played football/ I bet you haven't even gone through watching a full Premiere League game either.

You are aware that football kicks are simply not just kicking a ball in a staight upward manner witht he tip of the boots right? That the very first thing taught in football is how to kick using your instep. f you even knew anything about soccer you'd know this barebones fact that even little children know. The popular image so many English speakers (which saldy includes so many typical self uppity middle class Anglos like you esp in the fighting community) of kicking with the tip of the shoes in an upward manner is so rife and flies against whats taught in football.


OK in addition to kicking witht he instep...... Go search up a video explaining how to pass a ball sideways to players left and right of you to see how freaking ignroant youare andit destroys your whole argument despite selective picking of unknown literature that even most professors never heard of. Might want to watch a highlight of the most impressive shots into goals while you are at it........


You don't have much experiences with people from Latin America do you? All you have to do is check out brawls of people from these cultures to find untrained using different soccer moves anbd this froma culture that ADORES BOXING far more than current Anglo-Celtic peoples actually do...


So much that one of the fighters the Pac-Man knocked had a habit of skimming around the rules by stepping on his enemy's foot when he can get away with it to prevent his enemies from fleeing as well as to set up potential for a combo and further impact using physicsa s a result of his enemybeing stuck as a result of being stepped on.

For someone who with stereotypical high functioning aspergerish fixation to search out obscure sources, the amount of how you ar eso unfamiliar with modern boxing is freaking embarrassing. Esp since as I stated in my other post, even Mike Tyson wanted to go all out MMA on Hollyfield including kick him because he was so enraged by Hollyfield's tactics. I mean surely you must have seen the much acclaimed doc form 2009?

Nevermind the fact that if you actually put he work ethic to follow boxing outside of the big name fights, you'd know that on lower levels leg techniques namely kneeing and tripping are a big problems especially in lower leagues and tomato can level fights in environments full of corruption. But what should I expect its obvious you were the unathletic type just by how you took the effort to search out practically forgotten literature and completely neglected basic common sense nevermind stuff thats happening in irl sports growing up. No surprised probably one with a nerdish background too.


You don't even need sports and history, ever did a bit of research on criminology? Especially stuff in prison? When you have people knowing how to fight with weapons similar to 2th century men at arms just from life experience in a locked down facility, your whole argument falls apart.

 

Yo Botta Dritta whilewe are at it, I also recommend you start watching more golden age Hollywood and other black and white era stuff. Same with you David Harrison.

Maria Felix (I can already tell none of you even knows who she is) had a swashbucker film as a master fencer hiding in disguise (oops I almost shared spoilers, musst control myself). During the swordfights, she does side kicks, Leonidas style thrust kicks "into the well", and even circular kicks resembling roundhouses on top of one instance of the generic soccer kick.......... She had never takenS avate (even though quote a few of the elites of Mexico and across Latin Americans did take Boxe Francaise classes with the Francophilia craze of the Luso and Hispanista worlds of the time). She wasn't n athlete either so stuff like Rugby is out and while as the leading film star of Mexico she obviously learned ballet and other dancing, she didn't know it from a fight perspective............. Yet she's doing moves that are found in Richard Lester's Three Musketeers trilogy that would later make up a good amount of common stuff in modern Savate.............

Because Latin America's movie system (especially Mexico which had the largest industry at the time), had specialists to teach historical fighting. Includingactual professional feners to help out with the historians on set.


Now this movie was made in 1944. Before World War 2 was over. All which proves both and a few of the other posters on this and other discussions you aren't just wrong in a martial arts and historical perspective but are freaking ignorant of outside subjects like sociology, criminology, foreign cultures and a bunch of other fields outside martial arts.

My Portugueese Auntie in addition to buying La Boum 2 (honestly does anyone even recognize Sophie Marceau outside of Bravehart? I wonder if most posters here odn't even know she was the second leading lady in Gibson's classic), also bought a digital copy of whats titled in English Children of Paradise. Its not even an action movie and is instead a high art critique kind of film (so much that its widely rated as the best French movie ever made). The story is nothing about violence but revolves around actors on stage before World War 1.......


Despite the genre being drama and subject setting being live theatre..... Children of Paradise had one scene where the protagonist gets sucker punched in a bar because another man was jealous that Arletty had fallen for the hero (Arletty btw was the A Lister of France in 1930s and WWII era cinema). Once the hero recovers, he confronts the cheater who ambushed him.... And throws a CHase Lateral to the stomach knocking him out to the ground. And later explains to Arletty he grew up in a ghetto and had to learn to defend himself a few times, learning street brawling moves and even taking up Savate classes (or to be pedantic, Chausson lessons).

This movie is considered at worst the greatest moviee of the end of the Classic French cinema time period..... AN era when Savate was borderline extinct outside of certain circles like the military........... Yet not only is Savate mentioned in it despite being a drama-romance genre mix thats a love letter to stage plays, but the actor (who isn't a Savateur but just taught a few mocves while on set) freaking does a chase side kick on screen.


Let these sink in your head that before HEMA became big enough that fantasy literature fandoms and DND players were exploring it, that as far as the Black and White cinema old styles t were being shown on freaking black and white and even silent films. Not just that but even local street developed ,ethods that don't use formal techniques but simply everyday movements of commoners of the cultures like the different variety of soccer kicks and local rules for wrestling hell even self-improvised prison fight moves were already being shown on the Big Screen before WWII. A few of Pedro Infante's movie had him act as criminals and he totally used common prison moves like holding a hard object to sucker punch and football kicks at the enemy away in Western genre stuff and he even actually acts ina more modern setting as a recently released convict (where he is shown playing soccer with kids but later knees some enemies and throws a genric soccer kick at a person's groin during a fight). As a last tidbit, Pedro INfante was the Brad Pitt of Mexico of the 1950s.


Even actors below the A lister are shown doing soccer kicks and other local fighting moves. Victor Bo as the boyfriend of the role played by Isabelle Sarli (Argentina's Marilyn Monroe since nobody here ever heard of her) in the movie Carne goes intoa brawl and does a vertical football kick after using his fists , kicking the enemy from behind and scaring him to run away. All this ina minor insignificant scene early intot he movie before Sarli's character is kidnapped and becomes a rape slave, Later on Bo fights off some fo the rapist usingmoves so nonsense that you don't even need local fighting styles, just plain old common sense and managed to ultimately hurt the attackers enough to convince them to flee including grabbing one of them and throwing them in the water of the nearby river.


This is VIctor Bo who isn't even an A lister of his country Argentina in contrast to Pedro Infante, Jean-Louis Barrault, and especially Maria Felix. Let that sink in your heads David Harrison and Botta Dritta as you stay stuck in your /s intellectual circles esp of "fighters" /s.

 

I was all prepared to log in and take the mick out of an American loudly telling a bunch of Brits they don't understand about being British.
But the more I read the more I think there are some other issues at play here.

If you are addressing someone in the UK then that is basically the default.
No one here wrestles.
By that I mean virtually no one.
By that I mean there are some small niche clubs that wrestle, some catch and freestyle, etc. Some MMA clubs with wrestling instructors. And some fairly strong, seasonal regional scenes in Cornish and Cumberland and Westmorland wrestling. But other than that it's really nothing. There are probably more wrestlers in the schools of 1 big American city than there are in the whole of the UK.

 

I think a certain someone needs to consume less media and actually listen to actual British people who grew up being actually British.

 

Or alternately just grow up in the UK (esp. in the 70's, 80's and 90's) and you won't need to learn how to play football from Youtube as you'll just play it every week, if not every day.
And I say that as someone who hates football. It's not the same for my son's generation as football is not played as much in the playground like it was in my day.
The idea that someone in the UK would need to get a tutorial on how to basically kick a football is hilarious.
That kicking with the instep is some sort of technical revelation.

 

Another failed argument full of sad ignorance.

First you moved the goal posts which includes the entirety of UK history. Specifically the last few posts which was about the 19th cnetury and perhaps early 29th century depending onw how you define specific stages of certain arts' fighting history.

Forget that you show even gigantic ignorance of even boxing history.


Lets start by saying that freestyle and its predecessor catch wrestling were absolutely mainstream in the 19th century enough that plenty of generic gyms had training for it and even more boxing specific gyms had instructors who also knew catch as can and later freestyle during the early 20th century. That the well rounded Western fighter pf tje [ast knew both wrestling and boxing along with no-nonesense common sense kicks like stomping on someone on the ground and generic upwards vertical soccer kick perhaps with some Savate and other local niche style if he's well traveled. I mean don't you know about the background of the founder of Krav Maga?

Secondly your entire premise is already wrong as you don't even know UK pop culture like David Harrison (let alone general Anglo popular media). Sure no one practises wrestling on a serious basis......... But are you forgetting that Pro wrestling was so big that until they took out sports program it was airing on national British TV along with darts and otehr now obscure sports? ANd tat today major wrestling organization still have followings in England? That even the WWE has their core set of hardcore fans?


Are you also forgetting the Olympics? Jeesh so many people claim to be so called kn owledgeable sports yet they ignore the last events which wasn't too far ago?


And to go back to the historical topic, you seem oblivious to the fact that barebones wrestling was taught in the British army along with boxing.... Which would have been catch and freestyle. Thus completely missing the original point of the subject which is use of leg and the international stereotype that Brits are so fanatical about using arms that the concept of simply placing your foot behind and enemies heels to trip them when you go offensive into clinch range is unknown to British people who don't practise Eatern martial arts, kickboxing, and modern MMA..... ITs gotten so freakign ridiculous that the stereotypes even extends to Brits being so "gentlemanly" about arm fighting that they don't even comprehend for shooting for the legs in fighting a la sprawl technique of MMA.........

Which is completely a moronic n otion for anyone who even follows the Olympic or practises wrestling, envermind that even simply watch the Pro Wrestling that used to air on the Big 5 local channels on TV sports events. Because not just subtle moves like pinning your enemy with your knees absolutely are the norm in British grappling arts but even outright blatant leg attacks like sweeps are part of the moveset.

Last but not least your argument cherrypicks by ignoring the fact boxing really isn't practised in the UK mainstream nowadays. To the point there are not just towns but entire districts within cities that don't have a boxing gym and boxing is now mostly taught in local general gyms and MMA fight clubs in the same way you assume all wrestling is only taught in those niches. So once again another thumbs down for you because your fixation prevents you from understanding boxing nd fencing to add intot he mix all are suffering the exact same decline and lack of mainstream presence in the average Londoner's lives as wrestling suffers nowadays.

While we are at it you're quite very wrong in your assumption of wrestling in America too. Real wrestling at least is pretty niche in the USA as well as Canada (as relatives can confirm). Honestly if it wasn't for the fact schools and colleges, police, and the military endorses wrestling, it would have gone the same path Savate did in France, as a forgotten underground thing in America not too long ago for the non-MMA general populace.

Now WWE and other pro wrestling is a whole other thing and have a somewhat mainstream pop culture presence but I separated that for a reason.

 

You are aware I was trying to prove a point right? Esp since ther eare also other Anglos from the former colonies on the internet?

Did you miss the facft my Grandma is Scottish and my ma's side are immigrants?

At the same time I also have a gigantic advantage over many posters here because half my family is Catholic (on top of also living in a community full of Iberian language speakers-which as my recent posts show, a big amounto fmy family is Portuguese).


Its so freaking common sense. When you have patterns across Brazil and Chilee all the way to Mexico and also can be found in fight footage in the Iberian Peninsular, Iit seems like so many posters here lack any actual fight experience (possibly even social lives).


Since of all places pa guy on the local college football team KO'D another rowdy guy with a "soccer kick" (for lack of better words). Not even a proper one but more what they call a punt in Gridiron. Yes I actually witnessed that in the cafeteria at the start of the semester which is far more than what most people involved in responses can say so far despite their accusations of me not experiencing any violence.

On top of another student only trained in boxing and no MMA or any martial arts experience throwing a knee at another person in the hallway and ending the fight. Because it landed on the groin. All simply because its common sense, no special formal training needed, not even any training in hockey and other sports that make more use of the body than stereotypical boxing.

While we are at it, its obvious you don't consume much pop culture either..... Forget Joanna Lumley and other old stuff relatives binge (like translations of some old Arsin Lupin shows).........

My copy of the current Ork Wartome in this edition's Age of Sigmar states that the Kruelboyz Orks use no-nonesense strikes that can be mistaken as soccer kicks particularly hitting the groin and the heavier larger Iron Jaws creaed some weird armor designs that allows them to wound the enemy by kneeing them in battle because some pokey like thing is located on the knee portiono f the plate armor. As well as the Bonesplitterz ORks also fighting like savages in different ways )IIRC stomps and other stuff included).


When a freaking fantasy tabletop game thats one of the UK's prime Niche Pop Culture lists this stuff, it shows how plenty of users around here haven't kept up with entertainment across not just the Britain but Europe in general.


All this can be seen in how La Boum 2 features Sophie Marceau's love interest being a competitive Savateur. I mean Dalton as Heathcliff and the scene where he escapes a mansion anybody? Maybe I'm keeping my hopes up that people have seen Dalton's outstanding performance as King PHilip...... Or that anybody remembers Peter O'Toole using his legs to knock unbalnced a sparring partner despite his back beeing laid on the ground........ Because even Audrey Hepburn's only Medieval film has Connery doing moves more skillful than just bashing and flailing a heavy sword, which includes using his feet to prevent an enemy form killing him and grappling moves shown on how to kill......

 

Ok so now I think this is someone who knows the people on MAP and is having some fun trolling. Pretending to be a clueless American. Good for a laugh though.

 

Nope, this is my fist ever account here. But as someone who's so exposed to pop media, I had to comment ont hat clique because its quite irritating to no end how darn ignorant many so called intelligent people getst stuff wrong.

For example anyone who actually seen all of the Avenger's once would know that Joanna Lumley plays a character who's somewhat involved with Apache stuff (thus proving David Harrison already wrong even without quoting Savate specific sources like Roger LaFond since the freaking spinoff or Part 2 or whatever you want to label the immediate followup already has characters who openly practise French styles forget the first series where Diana Rigg actually did train to choreograph Savate kicks along with a bunch of martial arts and same with the various James Bond actos0).

So even his statements of Moore and Rigg and so on learning judo and karate is already wrong even if we assume they never practised BOxe Francaise because the official drilling has them all trained in different styles. If he actually seen all of James Bond he'd know Pierce Brosnan wields a knightly broadsword and rapier and other weapons during his run ine one of the most memorable fight scenes int he entire 007 franchises. Roger Moore playe das Ivanhoe decades before Bond so thats another strike against the judo-karate claim as Moore received stage fencing for that roles (and actually did his fair number of less risky stunts as he was quite young and just got out of the army).


Honestly its quite unnerving that people have never seen professional Shakespeare or even some of the old made for TV Plays........ The theatre tradition is easily the best proof outside of sports, street brawl and martial arts of how British culture did not lose barebones knowledge of using leg manipulation and even outright feet strikes and even sometimes outright thuggish moves like dodge and elbow.................

(Of course a lot depends on a case by case basis but English stage play traditions directly influenced American cinema and it shows with how Robert Taylor does dual sword and dagger fighting and circular roundhouse looking kicks in Ivanhoe and same with the extras mooks like how one Norman knight even does a Leonidas "down the well" 300 kick at Robert Taylor).