Why GM's are great to train under

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by KempoFist, Jan 21, 2008.

  1. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    That was me drilling and playing with some San Shou leg catches with Ruben. You can also note the compliance in the drilling that it was not sparring or testing.....but you wouldn't be able to tell the difference now would you. :p

    Sounds like a plan :)
  2. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Wow, Lily and you all in one weekend! Whoever said I didn't have an agenda? ;) You have said (correct me if I am wrong) that people have been awarded rank based on friendship, and that rank didn't equal experience, no? How much more strongly do you have to put it o imply that there are many GMs out there that haven't earned their rank? You guys are supposedly coming up with some "real" standards for rank now as if the KSDI had none. Sounds a mite arrogant to me. You will never see me so biting and sarcastic and nasty as when I am defending something I believe in. You and Tyrrell don't add up to sixty years old when your ages are added together, yet you all know better than the GMs and Professors who've been at this for their entire lives? Pardon me for not respecting that notion.
  3. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Ok that was funny, I'll give you that :p

    No, what I mean is quite simply rank is not indicative of raw skill and technical knowledge. Why is this hard to understand? The idea that the highest of ranks are the holders and keepers of fighting knowledge, and that only they can bestow their wisdom is what's wrong with the majority of every craptastic Ke?po school out there. Is that what you want for Kajukenbo?

    As for awarded based on friendship, -I don't believe I used that word, but I'm not digging back right now, you can call me on it if you want- what I mean is that they are human and will award rank to those they are close with or are on good terms. There are many people who are under Sijo directly right now, and don't seem likely to be promoted right to GM anytime soon to avoid being orphaned at mid-rank. If any of these individuals are not on good terms with the next generation of GM's under Sijo, well they are screwed.

    Grandmasters represent the elders of the art. They represent those who cared enough to stay with it to continue and spread the art across the world. Like grandparents of a family. Their leadership comes in many forms beyond simple martial arts instruction. All the trials and tribulations they went through as up and coming instructors themselves serves to help us newer to the game at avoiding those pitfalls; their mastery of instruction over so many years serves as instruction in itself on how to teach. They are the pillars of the art who carry the torch for the next generation.

    But no Danjo, it seems you didn't learn any lessons from you SKK experience beyond how to bash USSD.
  4. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    It's not. We once knew a man that had been training non-stop in martial arts for over 50 years from the age of 9 or 10 and yet, held no rank in any one style higher than black belt. In some arts like judo he had trained with people outside of schools and so had developed solid skills yet NO rank.

    By the line of reasoning I am seeing on this thread, one would be allowed to assume that if this man came to train at a dojo, others would assume themselves to be better skilled then he simply because they had earned the title of "Grandmaster"
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2008
  5. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    I don't think it's up for me to decide. Kajukenbo is not a democracy. Wasn't designed that way. We're clearly going to disagree about the fighting knowledge possessed by the GMs, so we might as well move on regarding that point.

    I'm not sure that there's a difference in your distinction of "on good terms with and close with" and "friendship." Seems like two different ways of saying the same thing: Those that are awarded the rank are not deserving of it based on anything other than being friends with those awarding it. Also, as to those that are so unable to get along with any of the GMs being screwed, I would ask, "What's wrong with them that they can't get along with anyone?"

    I think you're contradicting yourself there with what you said above. What is it that these torch bearers are supposed to be passing along if not fighting instruction? It's almost like you're trying to say that they have nothing to offer except to serve as an example of what not to do, then you say that they are great instructors that teach us how to teach. Which is it?

    This one is too easy: There was nothing to learn from the USSD except how to bash them. Glad you got more out of it.
  6. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Well, I don't think anyone is disputing the exceptions to the rule that you are citing, but rather saying that people don't generally get to GM status in Kajukenbo without knowing a lot about fighting.
  7. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Ya, that's pretty much my point as well.
  8. seattletcj

    seattletcj Valued Member

    And I thought the politics in ninjutsu were bad.
  9. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    That's pretty fricken funny. You married? If no... :D
  10. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    Nope pretty much the same just like any other art ;)
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Hey KF,

    In regards to the skill of grandmasters in Kajukenbo... let me say this. First off, the founders of Kajukenbo were younger than you or about your age when they created the art. Yes they were already established in other martial arts to some degree but they were not grandmasters. I would be so bold to say that they weren't the most knowledgeable or skilled people in the world at the time either.

    Let's get one thing straight, however. They were bad asses, every one of them could kick my ass. And the way they trained... I wouldn't last 20 seconds training the way they trained. You would not last either.

    I may have fought Muay Thai, done BJJ, and hold multiple black belts... but I will never likely be a grandmaster in Kajukenbo or any art. Maybe some day my instructor might become grandmaster because he trained the old way, full contact knock each other out in class, C.H.A. 3 Kenpo Karate. But he more likely will reach Professor in the next ten years and then that's it, no higher, he is already over sixty years old.

    Now when you talk about a Grandmaster Gaylord or Grandmaster Harper... just about every Grandmaster in Kajukenbo you got to know they trained the old way. Like I said, I wouldn't last 20 seconds training that way.

    Times are changing, but IMHO, not everyone should or can be a grandmaster in Kajukenbo. I don't care if they know the requirements and have trained a ba-zillion years... they have to know the old ways!!!
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2008
  12. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Are you trying to say that people could actually fight before the Gracie's showed us all the true way? I thought everyone before 1993 was just LARPing ;)
  13. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Wado, thanks for your input in this thread.

    As for the rest of this, whatever, you can all believe whatever you want about me. I've made my points clear, or at least I thought. I'm done arguing this nonsense.
  14. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    The fish always gets bigger over time. And big balls to you to infer that the founders were slightly less than godlike.

    I had the honour (spelled in the Queen's English for our Aussie friend) of hanging out and talking at a tournament over lunch with SGM Halbuna just a few months before he passed away. He talked a lot about the old school training and how tough it was. However, he said that the new generation do things smarter and have become better martial artists than the old school people from that kind of training. Maybe not all would agree with SGM Halbuna.

    edit: and I am pretty sure that I was taught in that old school way cause GM Reyes doesn't change much and what was done in the 60s is pretty much what is done now. With that being said, I can't be super unbiased on either side of the coin. I don't teach it that way anymore but I do appreciate the benefits of the method. It is my personal belief that there is a right path for everyone. There is no one true path.

    Last edited: Jan 22, 2008
  15. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    I have no doubt that there have been many innovations and scientific understandings that have helped improve certain things over the years. Many of the training devices now in existance came about due to the needs seen by the Old School people in the first place.

    However, I wonder in just what way that the newer students are "better" martial artists? I doubt they're any tougher, and in many cases I doubt they're better fighters. They're certainly better acrobats in many cases and are more athletic. They're not taking smoke breaks in between beating the crap out of trees etc., but "better" needs to be qualified IMO.

    Whenever I watch MMA guys on the UFC reality show crying like babies and even after losing in the Octagon, I wonder about the emotional toughness of today's martial artists in general. I can't see any of the Old Guard doing that.
  16. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    A lot of work goes into getting into that ring. I guess unless you have done the work, you wouldn't be able to understand. Nor do you have any right to judge them until you do. My hat is off to anyone that goes through that process.

    There is no doubt that the new innovations came about from old school people for a variety of reasons. In terms of if you think one is better than the other can really be related to any sport or discipline. Since the Superbowl is coming up I'll use football for example. Is there any doubt that the iron heads that played in the Ice Bowl were tough as nails? Of course they were hardasses. Do you think they could stand up to the teams of today? No way. The players today are bigger, faster, stronger, and more knowledgeable. Are the players of today standing on the greatness of shoulders from 50 years ago? Indeed. We can't have one without the other, but to say that the people training today are nothing more than acrobats I think is pushing the agenda a bit far.
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Well as for your rank. No one deserves rank, you take it. James you took your 3rd degree rank in Kajukenbo. It is yours now and that is it, you got nothing to prove to anyone. Don't give a poop what others think. The only one that can take it away from you is Sigung Dan because he tested you and gave it to you, so he can take it away.

    But if you want my thoughts on it... you need to grow into your 3rd degree rank. Keep up the good training and you are already much tougher than I think you were a year ago. I wasn't at your belt promotion, but through the grapevine I heard that when a professor or grandmaster came to punch you, you showed a lot of fear.

    I don't know if this was true or just an observation from some people. Plus it was only one time I think, not every time. So anyway, you started off your 3rd degree with one strike already against you.

    I know this is a public forum so I won't go into anything more nor do I think it matters, nor do I want to discuss it anymore in private either. It is water under the bridge. What matters to me James, is that you keep training.

    You got a good heart James, just realize these things can be like a prison yard, no body backs down ever, if you back down you are just a wimp. This isn't politics it is the old ways.
  18. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    I wasn't refering to the MMA guys as acrobats, just one of the many changes in the MA's over the years since the old days.
  19. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    My bad. MMA guys are crybabies. LOL. I need to get it straight.
  20. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    lol. That was SiGung Jason Groff. I was told that there were "whippings" for rank, as in getting whipped with the belt. He walked up to be, whipped me, then just smiled and wound up pretty far to punch me. So hey, he took me by surprise and got me to flinch. Not like I fell on the ground crying with the wind knocked out of me.

    Anybody wants to make fun of me for that. Well they can come say it to my face, and then we'll see who's macho bravado holds up longer when the punches really start coming. More likely from under mount with only one arm to protect oneself with...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ1gLmrqiLQ"]Kaju Promotions 2007 - YouTube[/ame]
    Video of my whippings. First guy up is SiGung Jason. Looking back I didn't even flinch out of the way, but rather just tightened up my stomach while turning to the side slightly to absorb the blow. Excuse me for reacting to body punches coming at me properly out of habit :p
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2008

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