Why does Hapkido teach step punch defense

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by svt2026, Nov 5, 2013.

  1. svt2026

    svt2026 New Member

    I'm sure his question has come up before, by one of you or your students. Why does hapkido teach step punch defense. Does anyone actually punch like this. I know forms will teach to step punch but most people fighting will not. Any good explanation out there.
     
  2. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    I believe it's a placeholder for several different types of attack in many koryu JMA. It's a standardized attack to examine body mechanics from.

    Outside of that environment usually used because it's very easy to do techniques against. It makes the instructor look good and the students feel good because nobody's self image is being challenged.

    Eventually the training wheels need to come off and the techniques need to be explored under greater pressure, greater resistance and against varied and unscripted attacks. Usually this never happens because it's hard to feel like a ninja when you're getting punched full blast in the mouth halfway through the technique. It's a lot more gratifying to soundly and effortlessly "defeat" your "attacker" every time.
     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    What do you mean by "step punch", are you talking about '1-step sparring' like they do in Taekwondo or do you mean the opponent steps forward with the punch (e.g., starts with right hand and right foot back and then steps forward with the right foot as s/he punches with the same hand)?


    At the early levels of most Hapkido schools I've seen, both of those styles are common. The main reason is to give the student a chance to incorporate all of the pieces (footwork, block/parry/catch, reaction) without just getting their head knocked off. Hopefully at later levels, this is sped up and applied more and more realistically. Variies by school and kwan.

    In Combat Hapkido, we teach punch defenses mostly off the jab, mainly becuase it has the shortest line and gets there the quickest. Later it expands to hook punch defenses (so that you have the foundation to work linear and circular attack reactions. We build up hand speed and reaction time through drills (a lot of trapping drills taken from JKD) and partner work.

    Once students get pretty good at preventing getting hit, I move my students to countering (striking back and/or locks/throws/sweeps). I introduce each one slowly (so they know eactly what's coming) and then we 'turn up the speed dial' more and more until we get a full speed punch. In each case you try to do two things: (1) not get hit and (2) apply your technique. There is still an element of safety because the receiver knows exactly what's coming at them (e.g., a right jab or a left hook) and can respond. When they can handle that, I move them into self defense scenario work and free sparring.

    I can't speak for all "Hapkido" out there, but that's the way we do it at my school in our Combat Hapkido program.
     
  4. svt2026

    svt2026 New Member

    Not TKD 1 step sparring, the second description where the attacker steps in and punches. Back leg step then same side punch. I understand its a nice way for a beginner to get the concept and timing but still seems to be done more than it should.

    I was wondering if the original concept of was to defend against other MA styles. Kind of like all the different sleeve and collar grab defense. It just never made much sense beyond orange belt training.

    Or is this way of practice just a certain line of Hapkido (ex. Ji Han Jae) vs. pure Young Sul Chae or Kuk Sul Hapkido line.
     
  5. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    in my jujitsu class we often refer to it as more of a 'drunken bar room punch'
     
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    However when drunk must people strike in a downwards motion (as if holding a stick) with opposite hands to feet. so Left hand in motion, right foot in motion.
     
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Its also very good at getting in a penetration step in between the opponents legs, whilst hitting him. But alone its very very telegraphed.
     
  8. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    yeah, they taught us those "move and strike" moves in both hapkido and aikido. the kinds of things people are taught when they don't pressure test.
     
  9. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    In some training methodologies (like the one Kuk Sool is derived from) the "techniques" are not supposed to be actual fighting applications, but just a way to learn body mechanics and rudimentary distancing. They are essentially only two person Hyung (kata). Originally, you were supposed to learn the technique sets as "forms" and then do "technique sparring" to actually learn application, which is essentially trying to apply techniques from a standing clinch against fully resisting partners. However, this part of training was lost as Kuk Sool became a family oriented art, and many instructors cannot teach it safely (you cannot just put a technique on someone the way they are done in the two person sets, you have to use unbalancing, strikes, and distractions). In this methodology the punch defenses are used as merely as distance, timing, and sensitivity drills. However, most instructors who teach them today only understand the "form" side of the technique, not the application. What they do is kind of like trying to learn stand up sparring through taekwondo one steps only.

    In other types of Hapkido, the techniques are done closer to the way you would do them in application, although you would still of course need non-compliant practice or you could never make them work.

    The big distinction is in how these training methods apply the techniques. In the Kuk Sool method, the techniques use the attackers energy as they punch FORWARDS and are taught off a step forward extended (kata-like) punch. In other styles of Hapkido where the two person sets are closer to actual combative techniques, the defender uses the RECOIL of the punch to move the attackers arm into a lock or throw and the techniques are supposed to be taught off a cross.

    The problem comes when instructors tech step forward type punch techniques as actual combative techniques, rather than as two-person "kata" designed to teach only basic movements. Of course, any child can see that joint locking techniques done against step forward punches (such as done in Kuk Sool Hapkido) could never be applied, as this was never their intention.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  10. Khan5089

    Khan5089 New Member

    it is similar to wing chun, as to maximize the efficiency of the movement. However, you only do it when the enemy is in range. Every step is a kick and every kick is step.
     
  11. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    I step forward a bit when jabbing as sort of a power jab and not just a range finder
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I suspect it is the same as in Aikido. Although the strike manifests as a punch when unarmed, it is a thrust (tsuki). It is taught with constant forward pressure unlike a punch that can snap back. The step is because students start further away so they have more time to react. The primary focus is on delivering an attack that helps the students utilize and understand the principle of AI by putting the students in a situation where AI is a favorable response.

    Hapkido probably stems from this same line of thinking in the roots.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
  13. Sinmoo

    Sinmoo Valued Member

    It teaches mechanics that can be applied to other areas. An extended arm is an extended arm, it does not matter how it was extended i.e. punch, push, grab, etc...
     
  14. doomx2001

    doomx2001 Valued Member


    There are two types of strikes whether they be with the hands or the legs:

    * Committed
    * Uncommitted


    What is the difference between the two?

    Committed strikes are ones, which when thrown, cannot be taken back by the person doing them. A committed strike tries to punch through the target. Like a Karateka breaking wood. When an attacker throws a committed strike they have already committed their whole body behind the strike. Committed strikes are done for maximum damage. To break bone or to knock someone out.



    Uncommitted strikes are a variety of things. Uncommitted Strikes are strikes that punch AT the target as opposed trying to punch through. They are 'fakes' to test your opponents spirit and reaction. They are 'jabs' meant to keep a person at bay and land a few good shots that wear a person down over time, but don't do much damage on the onset. They are 'check's when you roundhouse or rather low kick someones leg with the intention of drawing someones mind away from your hands. Whether done with the hands or feet, uncommitted strikes can be stopped by the attacker in mid strike. Because you don't put your whole body behind a uncommitted strike, your able to pull your punches back.


    Now that I explained the difference between the two, let me go further as to why the 'step punch' is taught in martial arts.

    The step punch is a Committed Strike. One that cannot be pulled back by the attacker. Their weight shifts forward with the strike, which with the forward momentum, Hapkidoist use the kinetic energy to feed in their defensive technique to throw or joint lock the attacker. The energy from a Step Punch/Committed Strike adds power to the defending Hapkidoist technique.

    Its is difficult, extremely difficult, and almost impossible to do a joint lock or a throw on a attacker doing an uncommitted strike. Because their strikes are uncommitted, they still have good balance. Only when they throw a committed strike do they sacrifice their balance and allow their limb to extend far enough, and long enough to be caught in mid air by the defender.

    That is why one step punch defense is taught. It is working off of the committed strike. As martial artist, we are to patiently choose our 'spots' when to act and when to recogonize when a committed strike is thrown.




    As for the idea that people don't throw a step punch, I disagree. People will throw many punches with their feet planted, but at some point to create maximum damage, they will have to step forward, hence, a step punch/committed strike. It happens all the time. You just have to be patient and either wait for opponent to throw one, or sucker him in to throw a committed strike/one step punch.



    Having said that, I will say that most martial artist practice the one step punch with very little 'life' in it. Meaning, your training partner doesn't try to actually hit you. Which is a mistake as it affects technique. If your opponent doesn't try to hit you, then it changes the committed strike to an uncommitted one, with alot less kinetic energy. Sometimes our training partners are afraid of hurting us, but they do us a dis-service by doing so. Why practice footwork/evasion and blocks if we are truly not going to test them or our ability to them in a controlled enviroment? You are only as good as you train, so train with realism.


    Final thoughts:

    One step punches are committed strikes.
    One step punches are a great tool for beginners.


    To change things up after some experience, have your training partner do:

    * Jab, One Step Punch - left jab (feet planted) and right step punch
    * Jab, One Step Punch - Right jab (feet planted) and left step punch
    * Three step punch - right jab (feet planted) , left jab(feet planted) , and right step punch
    * Three step punch - left jab(feet planted) , right jab(feet planted) , and left Step Punch.

    * Two Jabs and Step Punch - left jab, left jab, and then right one step punch
    * Two jabs and Step punch - Right jab, right jab, and left one step punch


    So these are my thoughts. I hope they were received in the positive spirit that they were intended. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2014
  15. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    This is exactly how my bujinkan instructor described it, and I agree to a point however, usually not enough credit is given to power generation of a 'non commited' strike, by someone who actually knows how to do it!

    Not much power? A halfway decent striker would knock you of your feet! But I also agree 'in theori' if you can somehow Spider-Man your way past a volley of bone smashing strikes, they WILL have to throw a 'committed' step punch. However, the patty cake parrys and move back usually taught to get past phase one ( uncommitted strike) just won't cut the mustard with a decent fighter.

    All just my humble opinion.
     
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Agree!

    When you have your left leg forward and left shoulder forward, you can "compress" your body by pulling your left shoulder back and then "release" by sending your right shoulder forward with your punch and also with your right leg forward stepping. If you can land your right punch with your right foot landing, you can achieve your "body unification". This way you can "compress 100%" and "release 100%" in your punch. Your body will change 180 degree. That will give you the change to generate the maximum powerful punch in your striking. It's an excellent training method.

    In CMA, beginner would use this as a solo drill such as:

    - left arm downward block,
    - step in right leg with right vertical punch,
    - right arm downward block,
    - step in left leg with left vertical punch,
    - ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2014
  17. doomx2001

    doomx2001 Valued Member

    I study Bujinkan too!! LOL. I do Bujinkan and Hapkido. Hello Bujinkan brother. :)
     
  18. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    Do you find they work well together?
     
  19. doomx2001

    doomx2001 Valued Member

    Yes, I do. But first let me explain.

    I've trained off and on in the Bujinkan for 10 years (no black belt yet). The last few years I've been unable to train due to my instructor moving away. I had no where to go there for a while. Then I found a Hapkido school about 50 miles away.

    It was Jun Tong Moo Sul Hapkido founded by Master Ma and Master Chu from Chicago. Jun Tong Moo Sul is really just Kuk Sool Won under a different name. Just look at Kuk Sool Won videos to get an idea of what Jun Tong Moo Sul is. Here is a video on defense against wrist grabs from Kuk Sool Won (KSW for short): [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzvuFkSnulE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzvuFkSnulE[/ame]

    Also worth mentioning is that I train in another Hapkido style as well which is Heuk Choo Kwan Hapkido (a former KSW off-shoot) which stripped all the kung fu elements out of it, all the weapons, and all the forms, focuses only on more orthodox Hapkido methods, and has grown to be a very different style of Hapkido compared to how it was in the 60's.


    So, anyway, when I first started training in Hapkido (Jung Tong style), it was very different but very similar at the same time. My Hapkido class you focus on fewer techniques, and you don't learn anything new until you memorized the techniques you've been given. Also there is more use of power generation through the hips. And Hapkido makes use of doing techniques with very little movement (good for tight spaces) but does also use the full body method when performing techniques as well.


    In the Bujinkan, from the beginning I was taught that if I messed up on a technique to not stop, but follow through. We referred to this as 'flow'. My school focus more on flow than trying to memorize a technique. This helped to develop really good taijutsu for real world combat.

    Also, studying in the Bujinkan I never was taught the same thing two days in row. It was always different techniques everyday. It made difficult to memorize techniques, but it helps to develop good taijutsu, and good technique will develop over time. That method of teaching also keeps you from getting bored.

    Compared to the style of Hapkido I'm learning (offshoot of KSW), You learn very few techniques (no more than 3 at a time) and you don't learning anything new until you 'got those down'. You have to do the techniques exactly as shown. If you mess up, you are quickly stopped in mid-technique and told to do again.
    This method of teaching is good for master a few techniques faster, but is counter productive to learning 'flow' and you could develop a bad habit of stopping mid-technique second guessing yourself which could translate into a dangerous situation on the street.

    I also noticed my feet move very little in Hapkido training. Again, I think this is good training for how to defend yourself in tight spaces. In the Bujinkan usually the same side arm and same side leg move as one. That is what I refer to as the Full Body Method. Putting your body behind what your doing. Hapkido by comparison moves the feet less, but to compensate the lack of power generation associated with the Full Body Method your opponent is usually in pain from some minor joint lock. So they have 'something to think about' to make them compliant.


    The biggest trouble a Bujinkan guy would have in Hapkido or vice versa is the footwork. That will 'trip you up', no pun intended. It took a while for my brain to wire itself in such a way to treat the two seperate as I would get myself mixed up from time to time.

    Also the Shuto/Sudo methods differ. Bujinkan is unique in the fact that its shuto isn't straight. Hapkido on the other hand does shutos more of the karate way. However, despite the difference I find that the Hapkido Shuto is just as effective as the Bujinkan Shuto because you hit not with the hand or edge of your palm, but with the edge of the little rounded wrist bone (kind of a hidden technique for shuto in Hapkido). It takes some practice to do, as with anything I guess.



    These two arts differ wildly when it comes to kicks. Bujinkan kicks are simple and aimed low at the body. Hapkido on the other hand trains to kick everywhere and anywhere. Having said that, 90% of Hapkido instructors teach their students there are actually two types of Hapkido kicks: Dojo and Self Defense. Dojo kicks are flashy. Self Defense kicks don't go above the waist.
    Why do Hapkido schools teach high flashy kicks? Tradition, for one thing. The other is its a great work out. Also, I've found that it makes my lower body feel more in tune with the rest of my body. Using the hands for combat comes natural, but the legs are stubborn. Hapkido helps to loosen your legs up making you feel more mobile.
    The bad thing though, is both of my Hapkido instructors are in their 50's and 60's with injuries to their knees. So they can't kick high. Tradition or not, kicking high doesn't translate well with age.




    Perhaps to put things into perspective I could compare the two in a simple chart:

    Note - My style of Hapkido is Kuk Sool Won based. It will differ a great deal from regular Hapkido schools. So it teaches forms (kata/hyung), twice as many weapons as regular Hapkido, has more hand striking methods drawing from kung fu, and a few other things not found in regular Hapkido.
    Regular Hapkido doesn't have forms/kata, is pure self-defense based, and only teaches defense against real world weapons (knife & club) as well as the use of a cane, rope, and short stick.





    Bujinkan ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````Hapkido (KSW style)

    *Full Body method to generate power `````````````````````````````````````*More use of the hips

    *Focus more on the 'concept' of a technique `````````````*focus more on memorizing a technique

    *Adjusting or changing technique taught to beginners ``````````````*Adjusting tehniques focused more on higher ranked students

    * Several hand striking methods taught `````````````````````````````````*Limited set of hand striking methods

    * LImited set of kicks (aimed at stomach on down) `````````````*A gazillion kicks aimed at the head on down.

    * Multiple weapons taught - Weapon against weapon `````````````* Multiple weapons taught (more focus on 'flash' over 'function'
    Empty hand vs weapon, weapon vs empty hand

    * Limited use of 'Kia' `````````````````````````````````````````````* Lots of 'Kia'

    * Specialization on rolls ```````````````````````````````````````````````````* Rolls 'adequate' in comparrison

    * Stance (weight dist 60% rear, 40% front) *``````````````````````````` Stance (usually equal distrubiton, employing varations of Horse Stance)

    * Fewer wrist technqiues ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````* Gazillion wrist techniques
    * Punching trees and rocks * `````````````````````````````````````````Breaking boards and bricks

    * Outdoor & indoor training ````````````````````````````````````````* 98% indoor training



    Having said all this, I just want to say that this is my personal experience with my Bujinkan school and Hapkido. Different Bujinkan schools differ in teaching methods, and there are several different styles of Hapkido, so to those reading this your (the reader) experience may differ from mine. I love Hapkido and the Bujinkan. They complement each other over time. At first these two methods of Budo seem so different, but over time they have more in common than what seperates them. I recommend studying both arts. It takes mental disicipline to separate the two at times, but they also blend well together. Its hard to explain. I just love both arts. I think the Bujinkan arts are more 'developed' as they are very old, but Hapkido keeps changing, growing, and evolving over time, and at a very rapid pace. Anyway, please no one get offended. This is just my opinion from my personal experience, and I hope this post was recievied in the positive spirit that it was intended.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2014
  20. marinevet63031

    marinevet63031 Hapkido/Koryo Gumdo/TKD

    I am late to the thread, but while still able I taught Hapkido one and three steps. They, to me were very important and integral to a complete Hapkido system
     

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