I've heard people taking about practicing tai-chi as a form of martial arts and fighting, but haven't understood why. I've always thought of it as a way for healing and health which many people have benefited from. I know some people are critical of different forms of martial arts, but I seek to understand why people do what they do. I've heard from other masters in China say that Tai Chi is the Ultimate Martial Arts. They've tried to teach me some of their theory but I couldn't reason with it. So what do you guys think?
In simple terms, TCC just as forms and qi gong etc, is ok, but one misses a lot if that is all one want to explore. All the form elements derive from applications. The applications can be used as elements within boxing, locking, wrestling - armed and unarmed - almost without limit. Then there is pushing hands (unbalancing) and neigong (internal strengthening) I imagine that a lot of TCC has been lost in China (due to Communism and other factors) but a lot of hard style CMA folk can see the full context of TCC somewhat easier than folk in the west, That said, making progress in TCC is not simple.
Sorry for the double post - accident I am familiar with the internal ways of training where you use your mind and internal power, so when you practice it in the form, you get familiar to using it in action. But as a martial art, they don't practice with speed, everything is done slowly in a meditative state. A masters here was showing me a technique that just isn't fathomable in real time. It was if a boxer punches you, then you catch the punch on your shoulder and then lock out his arm and twist your waist forwards, throwing the opponent. The yin yang concept. When I asked him to show me in a slightly faster application of it, he couldn't. But I guess that can be besides the point as a different masters understand it differently. The master that I train under here, who learned KF since 7 y/o (now 42) learned in secrecy from an old master. He will practice some TCC and the internal power. When I asked him about TCC as a fighting art or healing art, he told me it's more for healing. So in your experience, do you practice with speed or how does one go from a slow moving form to real time application. I've always been of the mind to train as close to reality as possible which is the Navy SEALs philosophy. I'm just curious of how people understand it that have been training in it for years and what kind of experience they've had. I know there is a guy out there that teaches "Combat Tai Chi" but everything he does is demonstrated in fast moving actions which could really be likened to more hard styles of training under a different name. Or is this the true way of practicing TCC?
Osu, There are many questions in your post, so I'll stick to the one in the title: Why do you practice Tai Chi as martial arts? For me, there are several reasons: I am learning TaiJiQuan as an exploration into something different. It is a way for me to access good push hands practitioners and get to learn some of their skills. I am not getting younger, and kyokushin practice is very taxing. I want to verify for myself the theory about internal power, chi, etc... Ikken was practiced in the early days of the first kyokushin dojo. I am in China, so, that's the place... What have I discovered so far? - teaching is very informal and seems to be tailored to what the student needs. (not what he thinks he needs!) --- for me, emphasis is on relaxing. - practice is in civilian clothes in a public place. There are no visible ranks and that makes gauging & calibrating a bit awkward. - it is a good mobility exercise; it certainly has some health benefits; I don't think I'll injure myself in the practice. - the body mechanics are beautiful and extremely precise. - it will take more time than I first thought. - there is lightening speed in some TaiJiQuan applications. - it is a ruthless martial art, yet, the martial applications are not forefront, and are optional. Hidden in plain view comes to mind. - I am drawing many many parallels between TaiJiQuan and my karate - In a way TaiJiQuan helps me understand my karate, but so far, karate seems to stand a little bit in the way of my first steps in TaiJiQuan. - An average hard external art full contact practitioner will smash through an average or good TaiJiQuan student with little or no difficulty; however, my fellow TaiJiQuan students believe otherwise; I have no reasons to prove them wrong; delusion might be the price of happiness, and why not? - Chi is a deeper mystery than I thought... there are other concepts too that I will need to experience to make them my own. - In view of the time needed to invest to acquire proficiency, there will be a leap of faith to take at some moment in order to decide if it is worth it to continue. - I use my mind and spirit a lot in karate, but very little in TaiJiQuan. That's for now after a month of practice. Osu!
Personally speaking, speed and its variations along with evasion and follow-up attacks and counters; is pretty much my game plan. This does involve doing stuff slowly and meditatively - sometimes - but not always. I would agree that only slow, and its very difficult to gauge what its really about. It largely depends on with who I am training i.e. what they are up for. Peoples perceptions in the west vary from pensioner hippie stuff (80%) to 10% general fitness to MA (10%). We seem to be getting a few folk on this forum exposed to TCC in China which may make for some interesting dialogue. Cloudz, El Medico, 47 Martial Man and others will chime in with their input soon enough.
The healing aspect is largely unproven and relies heavily on anecdote and rumour. Certainly there is little in it that cannot be found in other methids in equal if not greater measure (yoga springing immediately to mind) The martial aspects require a relatively sophisticated eye and are not always apparent even then. I tend to use tai chi principles (such as the "sail") to unbalance and move people, although I do not necessarily call it "tai chi" I call it good mechanics. Like any art there is a lot that works in it, but the trick is finding a teacher that knows it AND is willing to share it. Practicing slow is good to learn the form which in turn yields the application
Osu, I am not too sure what sort of healing you are hinting at Hannibal; you are using yoga as a comparison, and it may be true: I often use slow kata (karate) practice to work around injuries and still get some training in in spite of said injuries. I find that kata practice heals the soul also, but it is an unprovable personal experience, and surely not what you meant... In that sense, it is likely that TaiJiQuan would have the same effect on me. Osu!
I mean unproven in the sense that "chi" and it's effects are unproven at best and non existent at worst. What you get from tai Chi is a low impact workoput that may help you de-stress and relax, but that within itself has no intrinsic healing beyond those. There is nothing magical in it and nothing that is not found elsewhere in non-martial practices
Actually there has been major breakthroughs in understanding in the area of energy, but it is not in the heart of mainstream medicine. Here is a quote by Dr. Klinghardt who was elected physician of the year internationally in 2007. "the energy body or “body electric”. It is not only the summation of all electric and magnetic events caused by the neuronal activity of the nervous system...their strength decreases with distance from the body, they extend into space beyond the skin. Theoretically, these bio-magnetic fields extend into infinity. This is also the home of the other known forces in physics: gravitation, strong force and weak force. The most profound new knowledge on this level comes from the physicist Fritz-Albert Popp: each cell emits biopho- tons: light, which is highly coherent, polarized and “squeezed”. The biophoton field created by the light emissions around the body regulates most metabolic enzymes inside the cells. It modulates neural transmission, neurotransmitter releases, detoxification and many other body functions. Our experience at this level: Feelings (anger, joy, etc.), Chi (qigong energy)" The key area of breakthrough is by physicist Fritz-Albert Popp where he discovered that your body emit "packets of light" which is synonymous with energy and the Chinese word "chi" So I don't doubt the internal concepts, I've studied well into it enough and found science to be conclusive. Also for that matter, "internal power".
There is nothing, NOTHING that cannot be duplicated by good mechanics alone. And when you show me the peer reviewed double-blind results showing chi then we can talk science - until then you are just postulating So no, it is not proven at all unless you have a very low threshold for evidence
Hey Fred in China, I like the run through of why you practice Tai Chi. You're right that there are some quick movements that are also used. My master does Feng Seng Tai Chi or called "Crazy Monk Tai Chi" which is pretty cool. I can appreciate the art, just like to hear people's thoughts on it. I feel if it is taken as primarily a fighting art, it wouldn't stand up to other styles or ways of training. But I've heard quite a few mention it as a fighting art, so maybe somebody can explain that aspect that a little more. Perhaps there are things that could be taken and applied in a more combat art. As before I've doubted that "chi power" was bogus but that was because there is a lot of "magic shows" out there that show people getting blasted or someone twitches a finger and everyone goes flying - that kind of stuff. But it's much like you can train your mind and your physical body, you can also train energetically.
Actually you are either misinformed or deliberately deceptive - he was elected this "honour" by the Global Foundation of Integrative Medicine in May 2007. So in other words a bunch of quacks honouring another quack
True, the body is one system. The foundation rests on the physical level of good body mechanics. Without a good foundation, you will be weak, there is no doubt about that. And "chi power" is no excuse for not training physically. But what triggers your muscles into action? Your bio-electric, which is a result from activity taking place in your mind. I agree with you that there isn't anything mysterious about it, it really is basic science. Also what about when a lady lifts a car off of someone that is trapped beneath? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/wear/4746665.stm) (there are many more examples of this if you aren't familiar or skeptic) What about when people are hopped up on drugs and can move cars which my brother witnessed while working as a police. Where did this strength suddenly come from?? There wasn't any change physically, their muscle mass was the same, so how can there be this fluctuation in power? Also you may feel more energetic in the afternoon, but not in the evening. On a good day you may lift more weights in the gym, but on a lousy day you lift less. Muscle mass has stayed the same, but your energy has fluctuated. Would you agree that your energy changes throughout the day? I know that "chi power" has gotten a lot of flack, which I don't really like the term, but if we can just consider how power itself be increased. There are basic concepts without getting into "chi power" A weightlifter yells and it increases his strength/power. The "tsssh" breathing sound boxers make when doing pad work increases power, also the same effect goes for sprinters - their times become faster. This is visual and you can see what they are doing and it works. Also why does imagination/visualization work (the basic aspect of qigong) for so many athletes as increasing their performance? Swimmers increase their time by simply visualizing a shark chasing them. They didn't put more physical effort into it, which they are already pushing themselves, but just by visualizing their time increases. There are thousands of cases such as this. Qigong and it's internal power relies around breath work and visualization, nothing mysterious about that, it's just the meaning and association people have about it and the way that people talk about it.
HAHAHAH that's pretty funny!!! Maybe there is a short cut to Tai Chi hahaha But science recognizes the Placebo Effect but to them it's a nuisance and it is what they attempt to screen out on all their studies by making them double blind, which is necessary. But in the art of healing they don't attempt to practice it in their doctor-patient relationship. They recognize, though that belief has a very powerful effect. Check this out by Stanford University and Discovery Channel: http://paincenter.stanford.edu/press/video_discovery.html What are your thoughts on this??
Most medical practitioners acknowledge that they work their best when they allow "the doctor inside" to do the work - in other words they trust in the wonderful abilities of the organism to heal itself. They intercede when the system breaks down or simply cannot cope with the attack upon itself. Show me ANYWHERE that the so-called alternative therapies succeed where conventional medical treatements do not. You will notice that they do not treat anything that cannot be treated successfully convetionally. I also find it curious that whenever an "unexplained" feat of the human body is found it is trotted out ad nauseam by supporters of the esoteric yet they people who perform the acts have NO type of training prior to their actions and those using it to support their theories have NO ability to duplicate it by using said theories. It is all misdirection - like the missing dollar in the hotel room puzzle Kinda makes the point of using it to support a different position meaningless
It is not misdirection, follow what I laid out. Did you watch the video by Stanford University yet on qigong and pain management??? They are teaching this in their curriculum. They said that the methods the lady practiced achieved a 50% reduction in pain by using mental visualization which is as much as any pain medication will do. Sounds "alternative" to you? Would you consider Stanford School of Medicine a bunch of quacks?? What about the Physicist Fritz-Albert Popp and his discovery of "bio-photons" So far I have supported my case and backed it up with solid evidence from an established University, a leading physicist in the field of science, a leading doctor, I have explained the methods athletes have used and their results which are the same concepts of qigong. How much more evidence will appease you? I'm beginning to think you need to make your case.
