Why do Masters leave the Won?

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by miyu, Mar 30, 2009.

  1. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    This is not a response to any particular post, but this has been on my mind now for quite some time.

    I've noticed, that there is a kind of disconnect in these discussions about WKSA. It seems that many people, especially beginners, seem think that WKSA functions as some sort of noble entity with an altruistic mission of preserving Korean Martial Arts. The WKSA, like most martial arts organizations, is nothing more than a privately held business that exists-like all businesses- to make money. Individuals who own schools also own their own business, and (before the franchise thing, at any rate) what the association functioned as was actually a sort of consulting business that provided services to the school owners. Some people seem to not realize that their relationship with the WKSA was/is merely a business arrangement. (If there was ever any doubt that this was primarily a business relationship , the franchise issue should put that to rest).

    Now, a business relationship is not bad thing. In fact, it can be a very good thing. It all depends on how the parties conduct themselves.

    Imagine you own a restaurant and want to hire a consultant to increase sales and provide you with recipes. Now imagine that the consultant wants you to sign a legal agreement saying that you will not hire, look at, or utilize any other consultant, and furthermore requires that you to address the CEO of the consulting firm by some grandiose title.

    Few people would ever consider entering into such a business agreement, but that is almost exactly what school owners do when they choose to interact with certain martial arts organizations (WKSA is not the only one).

    Some people will say that they have a traditional teacher-student relationship and none of this applies. As practitioners of traditional martial arts, I think that individuals choosing to have this type of relationship is valid. But what is it about having this type of relationship that people somehow think standard business ethics do not apply?
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2010
  2. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Yes Convergencezone, a desire for overbearing control is certainly another issue!
     
  3. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"


    I'd have to agree with this statement UNKJN, however I wouldn't lay the blame totally on WKSA for this. As you well know the late 80's and early 90's the EFC and other MA management companies marketed very hard their system of management to all MA schools. They gave them the road map to attain a high level of membership which was implemented by many Kuk Sool Won schools. this included the amount of information and the amount of time a student should be allowed to practice at the dojang. Granted, it proved to be a successful system and schools thrived (and still do for that matter). The point is that a system such as Kuk Sool Won, or other TMA's, suffer because of the time needed to perfect the vast amount of information and the rigorous training needed to develop the strength and skill. On the other hand the school owners now had an income that would provide a good life for their families and could focus full time to their schools. It is a "this for that" trade off. I don't think that it is an excuse to let one off the hook for low quality skill level. Just because the students can't train six hours a week at the dojang the instructor should encourage homework as well.

    Regards
     
  4. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    sounds like that is an easy fix, sir. raise the time it takes to jump grades. your black belts will shine, then. takes 8-10 years with gracie yusul, and they:
    a)charge what they want
    b)have great enrollment

    maybe if the journey was emphasised a little more frequently than the goal, the students would stick around longer
     
  5. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    Are you saying that part of the "management strategy" was to limit the ammount of time that students were able to practice?
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2010
  6. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    The idea was to limit the time spent AT the dojang. Since the rent on a retail space is usually determined by the square footage, then moving MORE people through the doors per week is one way to increase revenue without spending more money for a bigger place. If teaching the maximum amount the space can hold every day in every class (i.e. the same individuals), you'll have a hard time maximizing your profit. By switching *scheduled* classes for each individual to only twice a week, and depending on how you work your schedule, this either doubles or triples your enrollment potential. It's not rocket science, after all, but it was something that many MA schools weren't doing prior to adopting the (evil?) EFC doctrine that became so prevalent.



    To Obewan: You're right. I should blame the IDEA on the originator, but you hafta accept that advice can either be embraced or ignored and in the long run, WKSA chose to go with the EFC model. Whether or not this was a good thing WRT the art, is totally a matter of opinion. :thinking:



    To SsangKall: If only we could convince the MMA crowd that kuk-sool is as good a thing to invest in as gracie yusool, then all the kuk-sool schools could charge whatever they want and still have great enrollment. :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2010
  7. elliotmurphy

    elliotmurphy Valued Member

    Wow, so after starting at the beginning and reading every last post in this thread so I could follow the discussion, because I like to be informed and I missed out on most of the drama, I find myself more informed but wishing i had spent my time doing something else, happy holidays.
     
  8. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    yeah. personally, i regret many of the things i posted early in my map life. facts or not, they were better left to in-person-over-beer/whiskey/soju/makeoli as they were told to me. if i could take it all back and make one statement it would be that empathy is necessary in understanding what has occurred on both sides.
     
  9. elliotmurphy

    elliotmurphy Valued Member

    I just felt compelled to say something after reading all those posts, lol. Like I read all this stuff, so something
     
  10. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    As the old saying goes: "when you have one eye on the destination you only have one eye for the road that leads there"
     
  11. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, C Z. I cannot stress this enough----which is why I keep repeating myself over and over again. IMVVHO--- I believe that there is a HUGE, gaping difference between people who study Korean Martial Arts, and people who simply sign-up to learn some stuff at the local Dochang. I know at first glance this must seem like a contradiction but, again, thats why I keep hammering on this theme.

    If we are going to talk about organizations, and business models, and coercing people to keep coming to lessons long after they have no passion for it, thats one thing. I have NO---absolutely NO problem with discussing such issues.

    If we are going to talk about individuals who have found a deep and abiding passion for investigating and understanding Korean practices and traditions ---either modern OR ancient ----thats another thing. Likewise I have NO--absolutely NO---- problem discussing these issues, either.

    What really gets my undies in a bunch are people who mix the two things together, or represent that they are about one thing and are actually doing the other. I simply no longer have time or interest in what I consider "martial mindgames". FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  12. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Well Bruce, I think perhaps there is a third option that some of us like to take. I feel that one can practice the art of their choice and concentrate on the skills and techniques while understanding that the history behind them may well be misconstrued, but it does not necessarily negate there historical value, or the benefits of them as useful in modern times. For example pasta is considered traditional Italian cuisine however the origin of pasta is not Italy, that does not make it any less tasty or nutritious.

    Regards
     
  13. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Last edited: Dec 13, 2010
  14. elliotmurphy

    elliotmurphy Valued Member

    Now you made me hungry, gonna have to go to the kitchen and cook,lol
     
  15. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    LOL... you did it now UK. You screwed up my diet plans :)
     
  16. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Just like fighting arts, and many other things, I would suspect that something resembling modern-day pasta (in its various forms) probably existed in several different countries and parts of the world. At the end of the day, people would be bound to experiment with what they could do with grown foodstuff.
     
  17. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    You did it now, Pugil! The :evil: in me is gonna hafta truly derail this thread...


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    Just go to PASTA to read up on its history, etc. :)
     
  18. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    REALLY?

    LOL
     
  19. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, Obewan:

    I think that was a very good simile'. You're exactly right.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     

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