Why Americans Love Guns

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by slipthejab, Jan 2, 2015.

  1. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Which strangely enough is sometimes the point - eg. someone with a concealed carry permit uses their gun in self defense. It can work both for and against those who carry a concealed weapon. There has been in the last week a very sad case that has brought up the concealed carry issue:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ow-an-idaho-toddler-shot-his-mom-at-wal-mart/
     
  2. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Hm. Now that I think about it, I don't remember meeting a single gun nut when I was going through training. And I was in the Paras. It's probably due to the recruitment process eliminating most of those characters before they reach Basic, and the training staff spotting the rest and a) binning them in the first few weeks or b) beating the immaturity out of them. Most lads going in were my age (18) and a few mentioned they joined to "blow stuff up" (i.e. tanks), but a lot of them joined because the Army was all they could do school-wise. My interest developed during training, and the gun enthusiasts I met post-Basic were extremely professional. That's my experience anyway.
     
  3. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    New York has very strict gun laws. Can't remember the specifics, but I think the biggest calibre one can own in .22 (at least without a special permit). A number of states have caps of rifle magazine capacity too.
     
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That is an extremely sad case.

    I thought it was interesting that the father-in-law said it shouldn't be used as pro-gun control propoganda, because his daughter-in-law was a trained and responsible gun owner.

    If that can happen to trained and responsible gun owners, isn't that proof that you can't make the public carrying of firearms safe?
     
  5. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    The one thing that has always shocked me is when a shooting such as Dunblane happened the public outcry was against the public ownership of weapons in the UK. Where as in similar incidents in the US (Sandy Hook shooting for example) the opposite happens, a few come out and say gun control is too lax but then the pro gun lobby seems to take over. And its not as though these type of incidents are rare in the US, it seems like quite a regular occurrence.
     
  6. narcsarge

    narcsarge Masticated Whey

    Great point and one that I argue for anyone that wants to carry canceled. As a firearms instructor I have seen, met, trained, and wanted to strangle many who fancy guns as their chosen implement of "badassery". I have also looked at the arguments within the Federalist Papers and several state constitutional debates about the nature of the 2nd Ammendment and its intent. Even sat in law libraries perusing supreme court decisions on the ammendment (snore). I understand both sides of this debate. I won't say whether I carry concealed or not. Won't say if I have a blade on me or not as well. As I have heard Simon, and many others on this forum state, situational awareness is the start of good self defense. Owning a firearm is part of this situational awareness. One should train with the tool if they believe they will need it. Nobody here would jump into an all out brawl if all they have done to prepare themselves is watch Steven Segal and Chuck Norris movies.

    The original posting made some good points about how this "tool" has become part of our culture. We can debate the use of said tool by individuals on a case by case basis. My country's founding fathers believed that a free and moral citizenry had the RIGHT to protect themselves from an overreaching, tyrannical government bent on enslaving them. I don't believe the gang members, cartel enforcers, and other "gun nuts" give a rip about the 2nd. Their culture is one of violence for violence sake.
     
  7. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    I read a report that claimd fire arm deaths are in decline. I think back to how violent the u.s was/ is and I believe it. The media tends to blow everything out of proportion wich tends to spread fear. Everyday in the u.s many people die in car accidents. We rarely hear about the . But one crazy kills someone it becomes head line news feeding the fire.
    Almost all who love fire arms do so for a good reason. Their own. I think fast cars and really high trucks are stupid.
     
  8. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Yes a very tragic case indeed. Hard to think of a worse case in terms of concealed carry deaths.

    However I don't think it's some sort of definitive proof that a concealed carry weapon can't be carried safely. My dear old mom has always carried a concealed weapon with a permit because of the nature of her job and has twice had to deploy it in defense. In both instances it saved her life. Luckily for her she did not have to take the life of another.

    We spoke about the particulars in that case we agreed that issue was leaving your gun in your handbag... in your shopping cart with a 2 year old. That was never going to turn out well. She ended up paying the ultimate price for her carelessness or perhaps it was the level of confidence that got her. Very very tragic.


    My mother always being armed means that we grew up around weapons in the home and anytime we went with my mom. I think if one had to grow up around weapons it was about as ideal of a situation as it gets given the circumstance.
     
  9. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

  10. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Define average citizen?

    You make a lot of assumptions about concealed carry owners. You wouldn't have any way of knowing the habits of concealed carry users in regards to training or range time. When you phrase your case the way you have it's rather disingenuous.

    I think if you look you can find any number of cases of people with concealed carry permits defending themselves. I don't doubt there are accidents as well. It's the risk and responsibility you take on when you carry a gun legally.

    As for clearing their home. I don't think most people are doing room to room clearing in their houses. A license for concealed carry isn't a Spe-Ops CQB exercise.
     
  11. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Id be ok with mandatory training. However it cant be allowed to become a tool of the left to be made into a backdoor method to disarm the populace.

    If you mandate training then somethings need to be assured for it to be practical. It needs to be accessible and available and more importantly affordable. Now i know basic NRA pistol and rifle courses are available but those are not enough. The good training is at places like Gun sight and Valhalla. However the cost to actually train at places like this can run in the Thousands.

    Quality training needs to be available and affordable. I like how my local club has a sim trainer, sure its not a real gun but it gets the adrenaline dump active and they use it for training in important things. Such as when and if it is appropriate to shoot and recognizing shoot/no shoot times and dealing with a real ish assault.

    So if your a lefty wanting to implement maditory training then in order to get my and many other right wing "gun nuts"(as i have heard it called) then just make sure it does not become a political tool to disarm us. Make sure that the trainers have a solid standard to teach to and are qualified and available and most importantly affordable.

    Id be ok with a Swiss type of mandatory severice as well. I am honestly surprised our founders dont have it.

    What i dont understand why People like David think i shouldn't have one to defend my home? There is nothing malicious about wanting to defend my home. People here usually break in with weapons, and alot of times you will get hurt regardless of weather or not you comply. How does that make me a gun nut? I happen to enjoy shooting my revolver its such great time. Its why i hate these arguments, people like me always get made out to be nutters because we want to keep them for SD(i rarely carry, i dont have the need any more. I dont work security anymore) and because we enjoy hunting and shooting sports...

    Its like the lefties the jumped all over the 9 year old girl who is a competitive action shooter.. She is good and yet they hate her and call her nuts to.

    More importantly shooting is fun. You should try cowboy action its as much fun as you can have with your cloths on.

    Most gun owners are not looking for high noon showdowns and killing people. Most just keep a small gun or two hidden away JIC some fool breaks in with a weapon and ill intent. Most gun owners dont do room to room clearing.. Just about everyone and all gun rags are against it unless its dire circumstances like someone raping your daughter.

    Its perfectly ok for you to be against people owning weapons to defend them selves just stop calling us crazy and nuts and extremists.

    Like i said, mandatory training is ok but it needs to be affordable, available and to a decent standard and not used as a political tool to disarm the entire populace.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2015
  12. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Here was another recent case to show you how warped the perspective of people can get.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/22/adric-white-robbery_n_4323080.html

    Obviously its sad when someone loses a life... but if you have happen to lose your life in the commission of a crime where you are armed and threatening others then you have only yourself to blame. In this case Adric White didn't lose his life... he's very very lucky. He did take 5 rounds for his trouble. All of which he deserved.

    Sadly, many people and their families in America feel put upon when they have to be responsible for their own actions.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL5iqph_KRQ"]( LIVE NEWS ) A Armed Robber's Family Is Angry After He Is Shot Robbing A Dollar Store! - YouTube[/ame]

    Given the ignorant and absurd view that some of his family members hold... is it any surprise that Adric White was robbing a dollar store while waiting to go to trial on previous robbery charges?

    Nope.
     
  13. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    While I agree with most of what you say I do find that if you don't want people stereotyping you... a good place to start is to not stereotype others.
    Not all people who are left inclined are anti-gun ownership. Part of America's problem is the polarized thinking. Left/right, right/wrong, black/white... this sinks the conversation every single time.

    I agree there should be more access to training and at better rates. I don't think that's going to happen any time soon. Unfortunately. I think that's to the detriment of society.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2015
  14. narcsarge

    narcsarge Masticated Whey

    Can't tell you how my blood boils when I hear/read insipid comments like "the family memebers" have made. Personal responsibility be damned. Being retired correctional officer and L.E.O. I have seen and heard very similar sentiments from family members of alleged and CONVICTED offenders. Notice how none of the family mention that their criminal son was illegally possessing a weapon and threatening others. This is a clear case of one person preventing "imminent serious bodily harm". Also, it is the exception rather then the rule. Thanks slip!
     
  15. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Slip the jab i agree. Every place and shop and organization i know is pushing training. However the good kind of training that is needed is only available to the wealthy. Which with mandatory training would make gun ownership the realm of the rich. Which wouldnt make any sense because the left hates those with wealth, so why give them the only access to weapons?

    While i agree with your assesment of the polarization and its detriment, i do however note that almost every single person against my 2a rights are leftists. I honestly dont think i have met a right person with a anti sentiment.. I will acknowledge that they might exist but i have never met one in person, only anti 2a people i have met in person are leftists who want us disarmed.

    However i will say it again, we need mandatory service like the swiss. We need training that is available and affordable. Those things happen and ill support whoever puts it forth regardless of party affiliation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2015
  16. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I realize that was phrased as though I was talking about concealed carry holders but it was more of a dig at training in general. The fact that most of those who exercise their right to bear arms (for other than hunting) in the US don't regulary train with their firearms is puzzling. Sure you have people who run mil-sim on a fairly regular basis or do regular refresher civilian training at places like Thunder Ranch but they tend to be the exception rather than the norm.
    If the purpose of "right to bear arms" is either defence against a tyrannical government or personal/public safety as its often touted then it stands to reason you'd want people trained for those things.
    The first is somewhat covered with reservists, vets, militias, etc. but the civilian sheepdog role (as nutnfancy calls it) is something for which you would want law enforcement-esque firearms training on weapon retention, subject compliance, shoot/no shoot.

    TLDR: If you have a firearm for "reason x" you should have consistent training to be able to effectively use it in "role x." No exceptions.

    Again I wasn't just referring to CCW but if you're using a firearm for home defense then you should be trained in home defense and that means being able to effectively clear room to room and determine fire/no fire.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2015
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Well, I never called you a nut. And if you want to protect your home with a firearm that's your business; I'm not going to prize it out of your cold, dead fingers.

    Personally, I would not like to live in a country where I felt I needed to protect myself with a firearm. That some people feel proud to live in such a dangerous and violent society boggles my mind.

    As for mandatory training, I would think you have to prepare for the lowest common denominator, not to mention that any country awash with legal firearms will have very high amounts of illegal firearms (or even a country next to one, like Mexico).

    Also, would the training given in national military service be relevant to civilian self-defence?
     
  18. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    You are so right about this. Its incredible. I think the reasons for at least some of this lie in the observation that Americans, more than any other single nationality, believe everything they see on television as truth.

    I've never seen ordinary people's lives in other countries so media-driven; so willing to jump to whatever conclusion the talking-head sitting in front of them wanted them to come to; so willingly unaware of how manipulated (controversy = ratings = profits) they are.

    You'll notice in the States if a person is "left" they have a religion of left - they believe whats on the approved list and if its not on the approved list of things and beliefs, it automatically termed "right-wing extremist" - regadless of how obviously neutral the thing or belief would have to be in terms of logic.

    One simply will not find a socially or economically "left" leaning individual who happens to like antique firearms for their art, crafting/manufacturing. Why? Because guns are on the "bad" list and are intrinsically evil, to be associated with the worst of historical crimes.

    The "right-wing" are even worse. "Guns, God and Gals" is what made America, or something. Any attempts to bring any control over guns are met with shrill screaming and rabid gnashing of teeth. "Its a conspiracy from the left to take away our firearms" "A man oughta have the right to have a 50cal in his home if he feels thats what it would take"

    One will simply not find a laissez-faire capitalist who believes in strict gun control.

    Why? I believe it because one doesn't find representations of such mixtures of belief in the media - which is a machine that is run on the lubricant of shrill polarisation and there is no time for careful reflection that require emotion calming logic. Logic does not produce ratings and profits.

    Baffles the mind. They literally cannot think outside the box of CNN or FoxNews.

    One saw elements of that kind of polarisation in Ulster during the worst of the Troubles.

    But in the States, literally everything is viewed this way - as Slip pointed out.

    Its very disturbing when one contemplates how easily such a people could be manipulated
     
  19. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    David I am sure that military training will help, but however I was not talking about that kind of mandatory training.

    I was talking about training courses appropriate for civilians, for their needs. That was what my available and affordable trainer comments were aimed at. I think the military training will help with respect and basic marksmen ship and weapon handling and basic tactics.

    However there exists a HUGE need for civilian training for sd/hd purposes and it needs to be affordable which it is not currently. Not if it is to be done on a regular monthly basis.

    As far as not being proud of my country, why should I not be? Violent crimes are not low in so called gun free countries. Just because it doesn't happen with a gun does not make it any less violent or horrible.

    Im proud to be an American.

    I wouldn't want to live in a country that punishes people who defend themselves from harm. As happens in the UK. That is a truly horrible thing and I would never be proud to live in a country that denies my natural right to self defense by the Best means possible.

    David are you against self defense in general? I get from prior posts and your tone that you are. Especially with your criticism of Israel and its self defense against the Hamas Muslim extremists that are lobbing rockets and suicide bombers at them. If im wrong im id love to hear how, but I get the feeling your against self defense..
     
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    All very sensible ideas :)

    What's "natural" about guns? Do you have any particular cases in mind where people were punished for defending themselves in the UK?

    But, for the record, I'm not proud of a lot of things the U.K. has done, and continues to do, as a nation. We've got a lot of work to do.

    I didn't criticise Israel, I just asked if the hellfire missiles they fire into Palestine would become objects of beauty if they had skilled artisans carve pastoral scenes on them.

    I'm not about to get into an argument over Israel in this thread, it's way OT. Suffice to say, I'm sure reasons of self-defence are given by both sides.

    I'm a bit confused how my comments in this thread make me sound like I'm against self-defence? I don't even know what you mean by that? I walk around annoying people hoping I'll get beaten up? :confused:
     

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