Who is truly a Boxing Master?

Discussion in 'Boxing' started by B.Y.O.B., Aug 21, 2006.

  1. B.Y.O.B.

    B.Y.O.B. New Member

    Throughout the annals of boxing's history, there have been many great champions that were great fighters for their era, weight, etc. but were not true boxing masters.

    Examples

    1. Mike Tyson:

    Once considered to be the "Baddest Man on the Planet," Mike Tyson is the comet that once illuminated across the sky of the boxing world, but has since faded almost into oblivion. A diminuitive man built like a small tank with explosive speed and bone crushing power. Trained under the late great boxing trainer, Cus D'Mato, Tyson turned from a project with phenemonal physical gifts into, to quote the character Micky from the "Rocky" film series, "a Wrecking Machine." Through the mid to late 1980's, Tyson dominated the heavyweight ranks like no one before him, becoming the youngest fighter to win the heavyweight title at the age of 20(1986). Using the Peek-a-Boo slugger style of former heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson. Often knocking opponents out within the first few rounds, Tyson was thought to be unbeatable. But then on one night in Tokyo the era of Iron Mike Tyson had ended. Outpunched and outclassed by his underdog opponent, James "Buster" Douglas, Tyson was soundly defeated and forever lost his title as the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. After his conviction on rape charges, Tyson returned to the world of boxing, mounted impressive victories even winning a portion of the title in 1996, leading up to his historic matchup with fellow heavyweight great, Evander Holyfield. The matchup that the boxing world had been waiting for finally had happened. Once again outclassed by a superior boxer in Holyfield in both of their matches, Tyson lashed out by biting the right ear of Holyfield, which resulted in a disqualification(I believe). Since then Tyson has only fought in several fights, the most high profile against former champion Lennox Lewis in Memphis, Tennessee in 2002. After an impressive first round, Tyson looked exhausted and intimidated by the champion, as Lewis gave him one of the worst beatings he had ever taken in his career. Tyson is now almost faded out in boxing today, now trying to get a career in the K-1 fighting circuit.

    2. George Foreman

    Probably the most devastating puncher in heavyweight history, "Big George" Foreman dominated the heavyweight ranks in the mid 1970's. After destroying Smokin' Joe Frazier other heavyweight contenders, Foreman took his title to Kinshasa, Zaire for his famous "Rumble in the Jungle" with the Greatest Heavyweight, and arguably the greatest boxer of all time, Muhammad Ali. Going in as the favorite, many thought the Foreman would utterly destroy the former champion, but Ali showed that still had tricks up sleeve as he unwielded his "Rope-A-Dope" strategy by lying on the ropes and letting Formean pound away on his arms and elbows. Conditioning was the main factor in this strategy, as Foreman had punched himself out of the fight by the eighth round, in which Ali capitalized by finishing him off with a dazzling 1-2 combination which sent Foreman collapsing on the canvas. He was not the same fighter after that defeat, but he would return to boxing later on in life, and probably pull off boxing greatest achievements, being the oldest fighter ever to win the heavyweight title at the age of 44 in 1992 against Michael Moorer. Now Forman is an announcer for HBO fight nights, and has his own grilling oven that has made millions.

    3. Rocky Marciano

    The "Brockton Blockbuster" was a tremendous puncher who could not only dish out great amounts of punishment, but take it greatly as well. Not known for being a boxing tactician, Marciano dominated skillfully superior opponents with his amazing power and granite like chin. He is the only heavyweight champion to retire undefeated.

    Great boxers:

    Truly masters of their craft, these are some of the individuals that make boxing the "Sweet Science" that it is, and make it to the place where it should be considered on equal ground with other martial arts.

    1. Sugar Ray Robinson

    Considered to be pound for pound the best fighter that has ever lived, "Sugar" Ray Robinson is a true boxing master. Encompassing every physical gift that a boxer could ever ask for(blazing speed, devastating power, excellent conditioning), Robinson a used cunning ring tactics and soundly defeated some of the greatest boxers that have ever lived. He won the Middleweight crown five times and also dominated the welterweight division as well. He had fought 18 other world champions in his time, including Jake LaMotta, and Kid Gavilan.

    2. Muhammad Ali

    The self proclaimed "Greatest of All Time," Muhammad Ali proved to world that he is indeed not only one of its' greatest fighters, but also one of social figures. Using uncanny speed and boxing skill not normally seen in a heavyweight, Ali dominated the heavyweight division during the early to mid 1960's before his banishment due to his refusal for inductment into the U.S. military during the Vietnam War. Upon his return in 1970, Ali was thought to not have the skills he once had, but he adapted his fighting style from a lightning quick dancing master, to a carefully patient methodical attacker. Unlike many fighters who fight their best fights in their primes, Ali fought his best after his prime. From his three legendary fights with Smokin' Joe Frazier, to his historic over George Foreman in the "Rumble in the Jungle," onto his third heavyweight championship title win over Leon Spinks in 1978, Ali showed that no matter what the odds or circumstances, the better man with the better skill will come out on top.

    3. Roy Jones Jr.

    The best pound for pound fighter of this generation, Roy Jones Jr. brings back memories of the late great Sugar Ray Robinson. Possessing a seemingly endless myriad of boxing skills, Jones has won world titles at the Middleweight, Super Middleweight, Light Heavyweight, and Heavyweight classes. His only drawback is a lack of competition, until his showdown with Antonio Tarver in 2004. Noted to not be at 100% for the fight, Jones vowed that he would defeat Tarver in their rematch this May.

    What skills are required to truly master the art and science of boxing?(Just my opinion, please feel free to add or detract if you would like.)

    NOTE: I did not have all my information and ideas together when I did this thread, so please forgive me, I did this on the fly.

    Goals
    1. To hit and not get hit at will.
    2. To control the fight, the opponent, the ring, and yourself at all times.

    A. Physical gifts

    1. Speed
    2. Power
    4. Stamina
    5. Body durability(Chin, Midsection)
    6. Arm Reach

    B. Boxing Skills: Although not considered to be as technical or versatile as other fighting systems, boxing is truly a technical and scientific fighting style, encompassing multiple strikes and movements with multiple strategies in which to use them.

    1. Mastery of different punches(With both hands to both the head and body, except Overhands)

    Jabs
    Crosses
    Straight Punches
    Hooks(Short, Long, Shovel, Haymaker)
    Uppercuts(Regular, Bolo, Haymaker)
    Overhands

    2. Mastery of different styles/stances(Southpaw stance is not mentioned due to the need to master each stance with both hands)

    Standard Boxer
    Freestyle(Ali stance)
    Crouching Slugger
    Peek-A-Boo Slugger
    Crab style
    Other stances to be used depending on fighter's style.

    Strategies
    Offensive Fighting
    Defensive Fighting(Counter Attacking, Rope-A-Dope, etc.)
    Range Fighting
    In Fighting(Slugging, Clinch fighting)

    3. Other Strikes(Not legal in the boxing ring, but still useful in a self defense situation that real boxing trainers teach their fighters)

    1. Elbows
    2. Forearms
    3. Headbutts
    4. Shoulderbutts
    4. Foot stomps

    4. Footwork
    Stepping(Short, Long, Forward, Sidestep, Backward)
    Footshuffling
    Pivoting

    5. Blocks and Defensive Maneuvers
    Bob
    Weave
    Slip
    Leanback
    Covering
    Parrying

    C. Intangibles: These are skills that are not neccessarily taught, but are internal within each and every fighter themselves that they use to overcome their opponent.

    1. Desire
    2. Heart
    3. Will
    4. Aggressiveness
    5. Patience
    6. Tenacity
    7. Intelligence
    8. Many more internal skills to name
     
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    errmm... you don't know Jack!!!

    Jack Johnson that is....
     
  3. B.Y.O.B.

    B.Y.O.B. New Member

    Jack Johnson was born in Galveston, Texas to Henry and Tiny Johnson, former slaves, who both worked blue-collar jobs to earn enough to raise six children and teach them all how to read and write. Jack Johnson had only five years of formal schooling. Johnson fought his first bout, a 16-round victory, at age 15. He turned professional around 1897, fighting in private clubs, and by age 18 was earning more in one night than his father earned in an entire week. Yea I know him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2006
  4. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    I think the real masters are the ones who, after they quit fighting, went on to train champions....
     
  5. mai tai

    mai tai Valued Member


    only one way to do this...scentifically and mathmaticallly(wel not really but fun anyway)

    each of us will pick a catagory and rate the fighter......in there opinion
    since each of us will only do a catragory individual bias will be somewhat washed out

    to make things easyer we will limit it to guys already mentioned..( i am leaving out jack cause i never saw him fight...sorry jack...but it probable serves you right for commiting that horrable crime)

    i will start......

    Goals
    1. To hit and not get hit at will.

    1-sugar ray robinson(a defensive wizard),2-roy jones(in and out before most guys knew what hit them), 3-ali, 4-tyson(early mike was a better deender than most give him credit for), 5-foreman, 6-rock

    2. To control the fight, the opponent, the ring, and yourself at all times.
    1- ali (controled them inside and outside the ring), 2- rock, 3- ray, 4-roy, 4-foreman,6-tyson


    total so far......ray 4
    ali 4
    tyson 10
    roy 6
    foreman 9
    rock 8
     
  6. Jamo2

    Jamo2 The Louie Vitton Don

    Did you write all that BYOB?

    And something i must disagree with. The self defence techniques. You dont need those to be a boxing master. And ive never seen any boxing trainer worth his salt teach those to his students. We're talking about boxing masters, not fighting masters, and seeing as those techniques are not considered boxing, shouldnt be on the list.
     
  7. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Well you certainly did forget to mention him on your list. :rolleyes:
    No list of boxing masters would be complete with mentiong him. ;)
     
  8. B.Y.O.B.

    B.Y.O.B. New Member

    I don't know his way of style that is why I didn't mention him and who said this was a complete list?
     
  9. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    before you go any further, identify the difference between a "boxer" and a "fighter"
     
  10. Jamo2

    Jamo2 The Louie Vitton Don

    Its kinda wrong to put boxing into a list of techniques that need to be mastered. That is why it is called the "sweet science". Its not the technique, its how you use the technique that counts.
     
  11. heim

    heim Valued Member

    funny, it seems wikipedia plagiarised you on this statement, because it seems to be word for word from their site. I think a lawsuit is in order
     
  12. B.Y.O.B.

    B.Y.O.B. New Member

    Actually its not plagiarising because it is not copy righted.
     
  13. heim

    heim Valued Member

    oh, you should have copy righted it in that case so then you could sue em for lots of money ;)
     
  14. B.Y.O.B.

    B.Y.O.B. New Member

    Well me and my friend wrote it together for our project we had for school also I fixed it up a little for this thread and as for some of the strikes. He told me he had a trainer who taught him that so I thought ok whatever lets put it in then.

    Actually the list of techniques are pretty much guidelines we thought should be given to the audience to get the basic idea of the boxers art.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2006
  15. B.Y.O.B.

    B.Y.O.B. New Member

    Hmmmm there was a car I alway wanted. :rolleyes: interesting.
     
  16. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    His way of style? He's a boxer. ;)
    He's one of the early greats... no amount of knowledge about boxing is complete without knowing what you can about good ol Jack Johnson. For years and years many top white 'champs' ducked and dodged him. Read up... he's worth knowing about.

    As for whether or not you mentioned it a complete list... well... that's easy... it's not. :D


    Don't be so sure. Many things are copyrighted the moment they are made. It all depends on where the company/org. in question is. Many times it can still be used under the fair use statutes.

    I could've guessed that was right off Wikipedia just by the tone it was written with. :D
     
  17. No, he wrote it himself.. didn't you read his last post? :rolleyes:
     
  18. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    err... no... it pays to pay attention. You obviously haven't. :rolleyes:

    Here is the Wikipedia version:

    source:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Johnson_(boxer)

    and here is what wonderboy posted:
    source: his response to my query about his knowledge of the boxer Jack Johnson - this thread...http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=954246&postcount=3


    Not to hard to figure out now is it? :bang:
     
  19. Sentrell

    Sentrell New Member

    Good Post B.Y.O.B., enjoyed reading it.

    Depending on your build, size, natural power, speed etc will determine which style you tend to mainly use.

    A great fighter is someone who can take what their naturaly given, find which techines and skills are best suited to them and use them to there full capabilitys for as long as possible whilst still always learning new things and pushing themselfs as far as they can go or even further.
     
  20. Paaaatrik

    Paaaatrik New Member

    You copied that off wikipedia.. You're pathetic .. VERY PATHETIC!
    Don't claim to know stuff by heart when you dont!

    <edit>
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2006

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