who has studied Ninjutsu?

Unfortunately just to finish off this thread so I can do some work.

None of us were present on the battlefields of medieval Japan so yes we can choose to believe the writings of various koryu or we can at least look realistically at other sources i.e the archaeology and the cross cultural evidence.

anything other than this is just faith in what you are being taught is the true battlefield method.

Martial arts schools are not without their exagerations i.e being formed from dreams ror visits by tengu and of course the advent of nationalism had a large effect on Japanese arts as did the ending of the feudal period and the second world war, so we can only hope that none of these things changed the way the arts were taught or the emphasis of those arts or how much they may have drifted away from their original teachings.

so i'll finish with this quote by Dr Karl Friday

 

In the context you're talking about, yes. The methods shown here are far more suited to a duel than a battlefield application.

Yes, he does. He says that in reality, you wouldn't rush in, but in the kata you do. "This is very strange". He then goes on to discuss being in kamae without being in kamae, and so on. The point you are thinking of is when he is (mentally and spiritually) in Seigan, but not physically, asking Nagato (from memory) if he wants to attack....

Still doesn't make sense that someone would attack a swordsman pointing a sword at your throat, and all that part of the DVD says is that Hatsumi Sensei thinks the same thing.

The thing is, though, it's not. They are both applicable to battlefield methodologies (as Hatsumi Sensei shows in the aforementioned DVD for Kukishin, and as the very curriculum of Katori Shinto Ryu itself tells you).

Well, the inference of saying one is closer to an actual battlefield is to imply that the other is further from it. Not wrong strictly, unless we are discussing them both purely as battlefield systems, which is what you seem to be wanting them both to be.

EDIT: And I'll just finish off by pointing out that Prof. Friday says most Ryuha.... Katori maintain that theirs is unchanged, and with their rules and history, are in a very good position to back that up.

 

from the Deity, must be true then.

How do you know?

"Bestowed by heaven". yes you see chris when I hear words like heaven and deity I cant help think theres some exageration going on.

and you do? so you were present at the birth of Katori shinto Ryu and were on the battlefields in the 15th century?

I already said that 2 years ago.

When did I say that the sword wasnt used on the battlefield or not used in training?

 

Anyway thats it now, I have no interest in discussing posts that I explained my reasoning behind nearly two years ago

 

This, as with the other comments you quoted, was an explaination of the psychology of the Ryu. The Ryu teaches that it was given to the founder by a Diety, it was transmitted from Heaven, and as such to change it would be unthinkable, to add to it sacrelidge. This is then supported (in the Ryu) by the stories of the Founder living to the age of 102, the place the Ryu has had, it's importance in training master warriors and founders of many other systems, and so on.

That is the teaching of the Ryu. The information comes from Otake Sensei, and is contained in his book.

Not really the point, Gary. The important thing is effect it has on the members of the Ryu itself, as listed above.

Well, I seem to have a better grasp on why swordsmanship was trained than you do, as well as what characteristics are actually being displayed, so.....

Okay, that I'll admit I wasn't that clear on. Not easy to quote you when I'm replying to quotes within quotes, so I didn't bother with quoting that time at all. The weapon that I'm refering to as being a main weapon in earlier times was the bow and arrow. It was never the sword.

You've questioned why it was used in training if it wasn't a major battlefield weapon, as well as claiming that Kukishin sword is "more similar" to battlefield than Katori, which is kinda wanting your cake and eating it too, really.

 

Aw, but I wasn't here for that one.....

 

4 pages later and no one says a peep, ok then.......

The above is not true and has been discussed to death and proven not to be true so why do people continue to post it and try and spread it as if its gospel?

Now you have people like Inoninpo thinking its true, congrats!

 

So which part or parts are untrue

1) So was Kiyoshi lying or

2) He didnt make the statement.

Perhaps it would also help to link us here to the proof that you claim to have.

 

So which part or parts are untrue

1) So was Kiyoshi lying or

2) He didnt make the statement.

It would also help to link us here to the proof that you claim to have.

 

It was never said in any of the 3 editions.

Its up on e-budo in the Ninpo section, the text for all 3 editions was posted and translated and shown not to include the fabricated statement.

 

Thank you, Its good to have people like yourself who can back up their statements of fact, with facts.

 

Maybe someone should have it removed from Wikipedia then, don't want this to happen every couple of months for the next ten years eh

 

Get your head out of Wiki!!

 

With respect,
I am of the opinion that Wiki is not intended to be a final definative source. It is my impression that Wiki is much more like turning to your Mantleside set of Encyclopedia. It is an introduction to a subject which one can then use to give them a sense of direction in their steps to learn more about a chosen subject. It is a useful Bibliography on occasions as well.
I consider a place to begin... not a end definition.
Just my personal opinion.

 

In other words, we don't call it ninjutsu, but nudge, nudge, wink, wink....

The simple fact is that you were in a couple organizations that taught ninjutsu, but never really got to the level where you could start picking up stuff about it. That is ok with most folks. Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu are great on their own as well as being the foundation for what you later learn in Togakure ryu.

You can't tell any of us what makes Gyokko ryu movements Koshijutsu and not ninjutsu. Heck, unless someone can say that they learned the traditional Japanese way of tricking information out of someone they can't say that they know ninjutsu anymore than a person that never learned to put IVs in can say they are a doctor. The fact that you spent a lot of time nominally in organizations that were headed by people who did know is inconsequential if you never really tried to take advantage of the chances and always tried to see things they way you tried to see them. I was not here when you were making comments about Katori Shinto ryu that everyone else found ignorant, but it does seem to show your attitude and it perhaps would be best if you took down any mention of ninjutsu on your web site rather than give the impression that what you do is a modern version of it under another name.

 

One it's a start to understand when someone really wants to hit you, what it will be like, and also the closest thing to a real fight, unless in a real fight. The next thing to it would be sparring.

It's also a great learning curve for when things go wrong (in which they will do).

I understand you Ino..

The people who never have or never wish to be, or those that have no spirit, or never will be in a situation or train for,might not.

But again we all train for different reasons.

 

Welcome and anytime!

 

It would appear that the only people who have an issue with someone using the word Ninjutsu are those who belong to the style who used to use the word but now have started to distance themselves from that word as their organization's Soke's credentials cannot be validated.

Jealous much!?

 

The nudge nudge thing. It had been said in another thread, if the name had been changed it would be so simple and one would not be bothered for it. This is obviously not the case. Garth calls it something else now, he does cite previous training however, which for what it's worth to most happened.

Enough of the personal attacks

This is like a bad NASCAR race.
I don't see an end to this debate, maybe this race should end soon.

Why don't you all meet and beat the snot out of each other and get it over with as to your understanding of combative movement.