who has studied Ninjutsu?

I'm writing this here in a responce that Mark Spada gave in relation to my website, but i've put it here so as not to derail the thread.

Now when I got involved in this art back in the 1980s I distinctly remember seeing magazine articles where Dr Hatsumi was playing this art up as Ninjutsu

http://www.winjutsu.com/bbtaikaiarticle.htm

http://hatsumi.gr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=26

But I have heard it said that no one today has been taught Ninjutsu.

Ok I guess a lot depends on what you term Ninjutsu

1/ A physical art of self protection e.g santo Tonko No gata
2/ Climbing, evasion, spying e.g Shoten no jutsu, Ongyo jutsu
3/ A series of strategies and tactics
4 A particular mind set

And you can agree whether its one of them, more of them, all of them or none of them.

But is it fair to say after all these years of Hatsumis (And others) art being known in the west, that no one has actually studied or learnt any ninjutsu?

Be interested in your thoughts on this

 

But if your happy with what you are being taught by whoever, I don't suppose it really matters, unless you've invested a lot of money by training overseas etc.

You cannot take away the fact the Hatsumi is an excellent martial artist.

 

No.

It might be fair to say that 99.99 percent of the people who have studied in any of the organizations have no more idea of the differences between ninjutsu and other arts, nor do they really care more than they do if pizza came from Rome or Greece.

And not knowing the difference between "X" and "Y" is not really important unless you claim to be doing your own version of "X" or maybe improved on "X".

 

Don Roley posted

I'm taking that as people have learnt ninjutsu

,

I agree

Or the middle east according to wikipedia
And not knowing the difference between "X" and "Y" is not really important unless you claim to be doing your own version of "X" or maybe improved on "X".

 

I honestly don't get why people are so afraid of using the term ninjutsu. I can't imagine any other term that would be suitable.

Taijutsu - if that's all you do in your training, be my guest and call it that. But with so many weapons in this art, is taijutsu really an appropriate term? Taijutsu is a part of ninjutsu.

Kobudô - it would be good, but at the same time, there's a big difference between what and how we practice compared to "regular" kobudô, so it's not really accurate either for labeling this martial art in today's world.

Jûjutsu - give me a break.

Budô Taijutsu - now we're getting closer. After all, it's even what most of us are graded in according to the diplomas.

Ninjutsu - this is what Hatsumi sensei, Takamatsu sensei, several Bujinkan shihan (japanese of course) and Mr. Tanemura use(d) frequently. I see no problem with it, especially given how the term and the different readings of it has never ever been fixed to mean only stealth, spying, poison making etc (except for in some schools during the (late) Edo period). If it's okay for the Sôke, it's okay for me...

 

But as for offshooters claiming to teach ninjutsu, I believe the question "how much ninjutsu has X actually learnt?" is more than valid.

In Gojû Ryû Karate, you can't be a 5th dan and suck. In the Bujinkan, you can be a 15th dan and suck a whole lot. But theoretically, if you were a 5th dan in Gojû Ryû Karate, quit the organization and started teaching "karate" on your own... well "how much karate did X really learn?" would be a very valid question.

Same thing here. If you are a part of the Bujinkan or Genbukan (I am not familiar with how the Jinenkan uses the term ninjutsu) you can say you are studying ninjutsu. If you quit to teach on your own, then you better be damn good to be saying you are teaching ninjutsu.

 

Why?


Personally I think Bujinkan Taijutsu hits the nail on the head.

 

See I just don't get the whole if your not training under Hatsumi you can't call it ninjutsu.

If I learn Boxing, it's still Boxing granted some camps do it better than others, Karate is still Karate regardless of where it is...you don't see Thais rocking and crying in the corner 'cuz were teaching Thai boxing over here.

 

I think it's more "don't call what you do/teach Ninjutsu if you've not actually trained in it".

It all gets a bit mucky, imo, with the Buj because you have BBT and the ryu-ha. Where things are separate and where they overlap can lead to confusion.

 

To go by Serge Mol's definition of Jûjutsu (which IMO is pretty accurate) :

Jûjutsu - "A method of close combat, either unarmed or employing minor weapons, that can be used in defensive or offensive ways, to subdue one or more unarmed or armed opponents."

The term would maybe be suitable if spear, bô, sword, etc. can be called "minor weapons"...

 

Now we get to range in curriculum against focus of the school.

A school could be known for doing Jujutsu but still be sogo bujutsu.

The question is what is taught in the Buj and at what frequency?



Of course it's all academic as it's completely down to Hatsumi Sensei.

 

What I'm wondering is if there's any historical evidence further back than Takamatsu sensei indicating that ninjutsu was used as a blanket term for martial arts, that is, in the same way it was used in the 80's.

For instance, would someone like Sakagami Taro Kunishige have referred to Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu as ninjutsu (as opposed to, let's say, Gyokko ryu ****ojutsu/Shinden Koto ryu Karate/Iga ryu Karate)?

 

At least bô and sword are very common even in Honbu Dôjô... and looking at all the available video and literary material put out by Hatsumi sensei, it's clear that unarmed fighting is only one part.

 

Yes, yes, it just occurred to me that someone is going to post that old writing by Momochi Sandayu about what ninjutsu is meant for. Thing is, it doesn't answer my question.

 

Maybe an even better question would be, what did Toda call it when teaching Takamatsu?

I think it's important to look at how terms have been used differently during different times. Tôjutsu and kenjutsu is, ironically, a pretty good example. One could start arguing that kenjutsu only uses a straight sword and tôjutsu a katana, but it's pretty obvious today that it's not quite so simple...

 

Ninjutsu (忍術?) sometimes used interchangeably with the term ninpō (忍法?) is the martial art, strategy, and tactics of unconventional warfare and guerrilla warfare as well as the art of espionage purportedly practiced by the shinobi (commonly known outside of Japan as ninja).[1]

While there are several styles of "modern ninjutsu," the historicity and lineage of these styles is disputed. Some schools and masters claim to be "the only true and legitimate heirs" of the art, but Ninjutsu is not totally centralized like modernized Martial Arts such as Judo or Taekwondo.[2]


Any of you qualified according to the wiki description?

 

You're not stupid, you know better than to rely on wikipedia regarding things like this.

And there is no such thing as unconventional warfare.

 

No, it wouldn't be.

 

See this is another thing I don't understand.

My understanding of Wikipedia is that it can be contested and changed.

So if that isn't correct why leave it there? Afterall there are many people who do take what Wikipedia says as gospal...and when the computers take over the world and eat all the books there will be nothing left but the wiki description