Who Are The 15th Dans?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Fu_Bag, Oct 20, 2010.

  1. J_Alexander

    J_Alexander Valued Member

    My opinions, as stated, come from being in the Bujinkan for 10 years off and on before finding Genbukan - from which I never looked back.

    I first studied at Peter King’s dojo in the mid to late 80’s expecting to see something fantastic. But what I saw were black belts not even being able to do a basic forward role properly, no basics, no description of patterns and how to execute them, macho guys attempting pressure points etc. As time progressed, do-gi’s were slowly replaced for clown wear etc. It looked and even more importantly, felt completely wrong. Was this the martial art that had been handed down through the ages developed out of true fighting experience? No. Where was the discipline, the etiquette, the hard training commonly associated with true traditional martial arts? There wasn’t the slightest sign of a set curriculum. People would walk in and they’d be doing bad henka dan patterns as an introduction. Gradings were just a free for all dependent on what the teacher at the time felt like doing. And of course, you had to ‘grow into your grade’ even though you clearly weren’t that level and had no actual patterns to even show for it. Yes, for sure what I witnessed over those years was complete and utter garbage. As for the four 'heavenly kings' well I rest my case. Plain daft.

    I also went to seminars by Stephen Hayes expounding all manner of nonsense. Everything that I saw simply could not have been what had made ninpo/ninja legendary for centuries. Something was so clearly wrong. In the end, I just stopped as I’d rather train in nothing than train in Bujinkan. If you disagree with what I am saying then I believe you are living in denial. That is what annoys you. The truth is that 'Ninjutsu' in the UK in the 80s attracted the martial art failures (from 70's Karate/Judo/Kung Fu etc) that poisoned it completely and thus began the problem, culminating in the sheer fiasco there is now. It was an easy way without hard training and they were responsible for teaching the next generation and so on.

    In the USA I believe it was the same with (and including) Stephen Hayes, where a tremendous amount of damage to ninpo was done. I do not know about other countries but a quick look on ‘youtube’ leads me to believe the same. None of these early great 'pioneers' did any real training, yet they passed on some sloppy 'martial art' after a few visits to Japan, eventually becoming recognised as 'Ninjutsu'. Whether this was the intention in Japan, I cannot say, but nonetheless it was allowed to continue and it evolved unabated.

    Are you really studying true ninpo or do you just like the ‘idea’ of training – one that requires no real effort or the correct spirit? But like I first said, just my opinion. That's all.

    Jamie.
     
  2. bvelto

    bvelto Valued Member

    Friends,

    I am also someone who trains in the Genbukan. I've been a long time lurker and occasional poster to these boards. I am very disappointed that some of you, for whom I have respect, descended to ridiculing an entire organization based on the observations of one of its members. There are high ranking members of Genbukan who read these boards and to whom some of you have turned for advise. Do I agree with the criticisms that have been leveled? No. Frankly, I don't have enough experience in ninpo in general and none with the Bujinkan in particular to make such claims. But just because you don't agree with the posts, or have had a different experience doesn't mean you should go down this road.

    For the record, I don't know Jamie Alexander or who his/her teacher is. I am disappointed that a representative of our organization would engage in such behavior...
     
  3. Oriares

    Oriares Valued Member


    I don't think anyone was seriously ridiculing the Genbukan.
     
  4. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Obviously tactics, awareness, use of the fence and verbal skills all very important in a real life situation, but an ability to fight translates as an ability to defend yourself if none of these work IMHO.
     
  5. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    I had once been given some Genbukan and Jinenkan DVDs as a gift. I was quite excited as I wanted to see what made these two orgs different from the bujinkan. (from a technique perspective, not a training methodology perspective)

    I didn't really see much difference to be honest. Nothing that blew me away.

    Here a search of "Gyokko Ryu Kihon" then alternated with "Genbukan", "Jinenkan" & "Bujinkan" turned up these results...

    Apart from some technical errors (which can be seen in each vid...like Genbukan guy doesn't bend his knees enough, Jinenkan guy too close at times and Bujinkan bending back too much etc...which everyone will be guilty of) I don't see a hell of a lot different conceptually for people to have the balls to get on a high horse over.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDioF91D9RA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDioF91D9RA[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9PZLFldMjg&feature=fvw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9PZLFldMjg&feature=fvw[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXENizaV8CI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXENizaV8CI[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laLGyoGHv3Q&feature=fvw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laLGyoGHv3Q&feature=fvw[/ame]
     
  6. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    You're not listening.

    Entire systems, among them modern MMA, are designed to work under very specific circumstances, and those circumstances alone. Fighting, self defense and combat are three vastly different scenarios. Allow me to quote the illustrious Mr. MacYoung:

    "You attack and defend differently against an equally armed, equally prepared and equally skilled opponent than you do when you are trying to murder someone before they can defend themselves."

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    See, I think there is less of a chance. Don't get me wrong, you're quite right in saying there's always someone bigger (or smaller) who could take you down. Or you could get jumped from behind, or rushed by a group of people and not have a chance. This is always true to an extent no matter how much training you do.

    BUT! I think if you train hard in the right way the odds go in your favour, and you have a much greater chance of coming out on top, or of not having to fight at all.



    I haven't been in a proper fight since I started training eight years ago, and hopefully I never will be. You sum it up very well. I agree about the confidence and awareness side of things, sometimes just crossing the street at the right time can make all the difference.

    But in training I've been leg kicked by thai boxers, hip thrown by judokas, kicked in the head by TKDers, punched in the face by boxers, armbared by BJJers, slammed and completely crushed by wrestlers, taken palm strikes by kung fu experts and side kicked by San Da champions.

    The improvements I have felt myself make to cope with these experiences is my ROI.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010
  8. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    I've heard this theory repeated many many many times before, it sounds plausable. And yet.......where is the evidence? Surely if it were true MMAers, TKDers, Judokas, boxers, kickboxers, thai boxers, BJJers and other martial artists should be far more likely to look for trouble on the streets the longer they've been training and the more like a 'hammer' they have become? Surely?

    This, however, is not the case. At my old MMA school there were several guys who had been serial street fighters before they started training. Training gave them a channel for their aggression and took away their fear, as well as giving them a great reason not to drink to excess. They are not unique by any means, more gyms have similar members.

    Its interesting to remember that boxing was encouraged hugely by churchs in Victorian Britain because it was seen as a way to keep youths on the straight and narrow and stop them fighting on the streets. There was a logic to their thinking.
     
  9. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    That totally depends on what century we're discussing.
     
  10. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    Different? Yes. Vastly different? No I don't think so.

    There is a great deal of footage out there of 'sports' martial artists successfully defending themselves in real situations using the very same skills they developed fighting against equally armed, equally prepared and equally skilled opponents.
     
  11. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    Sorry, I forgot that bit! I was talking about the Victorian era.
     
  12. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    Totally besides the point.

    You can drive nails with the butt of a screwdriver too. And again, to quote a certain Mr. MacYoung - balancing a cruise ship on top of a skateboard and rolling it down the street is by all means an astonishing feat - it is not, however, in any way an example of good engineering.

    And frankly I don't really believe that "equal armament" part. More likely it's equal lack of armament.

    EDIT: Having said that, I have no reason to doubt what people tend to say about the Dogeaters.

    EDIT 2: I don't believe the "equally prepared" bit either. Nor the equally skilled thingy.
     
  13. Manga

    Manga Moved On

    Snoop said - "Its interesting to remember that boxing was encouraged hugely by churchs in Victorian Britain because it was seen as a way to keep youths on the straight and narrow and stop them fighting on the streets. There was a logic to their thinking."

    So, correct me if I'm wrong here but what you seem to be saying is that the church saw a problem with a bunch of youths getting into fights all the time and said hey, let's give them an outlet to do so where at least they won't be a public nuisance, right?

    So by your logic and indeed anecdote, sports martial arts gyms are basically filled with youths who would otherwise be a public nuisance by getting into fights. Is that correct? Because in my (relatively limited I'm sure) personal experience I'd have to agree*. Sports martial arts appeal to those who are already predisposed towards fighting as a solution. They've already learned through life to solve their problems and social standing issues by fighting. Sports martial arts simply gives them a place to extend these behaviours. And of course, because these people have already learned these behaviours beforehand and probably had some success with them, they continue to extoll the virtues of those behaviours once they get into a new environment which even goes so far as to encourage and support such behaviours.

    *EDIT - For clarity, I'm thinking specifically of a local boxing gym whose members are some of the most arrogant swaggering bullying bottomholes you could ever hope to meet.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010
  14. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned


    Well, I obviously can't and won't speak for anyone else. But the point I was trying to make when I posted that Genbukan clip was if Mr. Alexander was adamant that Bujinkan movement sucks so bad ( as he indicated through his vast amount of expereince ) and that he was so very "happy" in the Genbukan, then I could only surmise that Genbukan movement must be vastly superior to anything else on planet earth.

    When, judging by what I've seen of Tanemura's movment, that could not be further from the truth.


    - Mark Spada
     
  15. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned


    If I ridiculed your organization, I assure you that it was partially in jest, and partially as the result of the outlandish statements made by your so-called "representative". But that's the problem, isn't it? You claim to not know who he is or who his teacher is, yet you refer to him as a representative.

    There are quite a few people in the Bujinkan who know my name and the name of my teacher. Yet I seriously doubt any one of them would accept me as a representative of the Bujinkan, nor would they likely ever want to; I doubt most of them would even let me near their dojo. And I certainly wouldn't want to be a representative, either.

    The only real representative of the organization should be the boss or someone the boss chooses.

    But I understand what you were getting at and I appreciate your sentiments.


    - Mark Spada
     
  16. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    this forum reminds me of this:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-lY4OHD6P8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-lY4OHD6P8[/ame]
     
  17. bvelto

    bvelto Valued Member

    Perhaps I should have used the word member instead of representative...
     
  18. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned

  19. Fudo-shin

    Fudo-shin Valued Member

    No offense, but from what I have seen of, I couldn't disagree more. I think Tanemura Sensei is awesome. I know his movement is real as he generally lights me up like New Years fireworks. Got no real issues with Bujinkan though, were all the same family :) and have no axe to grinde.

    One thing for everyone to know is people are people and thos people are not necessarily "the organization", while some people badmouth anyone, that is just that person's opinion, no need to respond against an entire organization because there is just as many people with good things to say as well as bad.


    Everyone has their own expecations, likes and dislikes though. Nothing new can be said about one team vs the other that hadn't already been said since the first Ninpo-L list in 95, or E-budo through the years, etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2010
  20. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    That was a nice respectful answer. Thank you
     

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