I am interested in tracing White Crane lineages. In England We have Fujian White Crane clubs. http://www.fwckungfu.com/servlet/baihe. The front page says: We teach the real thing. We know our lineage, right back to Fan Qiang Liang, the founder of the White Crane System. This organisation has over 1000 users, of which I know some use this forum. Does ANYBODY know what is the lineage of this system back to Fan Quiang Liang? I am aware that much of the material they practice is from Nam Yang association in Singapore. Am only interested in hearing from people from this club who can help me with their full lineage. In particular the lineage which applies to the versions of the San Zhan forms and Shr San Tai Bau ( 13 treasures ) forms from this organisation. I have been trying to research this lineage for over a year now with no joy.I suspect that no body in this organisation knows the full lineage of these forms back to its source. The reason I am looking into this is the understand where our lineages seperated as we practice the same form. This is one of several forms which we share. Martin Watts www.fujianbaihe.com www.yongchunbaihechuen.com
I don't know what variant (Flying, Sleeping, Spitting or Eating Crane) this organisation claim. I've come across their website a few times, and each time I'm disappointed to see they hide information behind a login. My school explains its lineage in great detail in this page: http://www.shaolinwhitecranekungfu.com/styles/white.asp
Apart from the dan grades, I enjoyed the site. Very upbeat and the report of an inter-school tourney sounded like a great day. Whining that some info is only for members shouldn't reflect on any personalities, per se. You can always ask, I guess. Rgds, David
I know them fairly well. They teach good stuff. I know the lineage back through the Nam Yang association on the large part of their work. Am interested in lineage pre Thee family if they are using that lineage, or the complete other lineage if there is another one they are using for their school. They currently Train a little with Su Yin Han ( a well know White Crane Master in Yong Chun. ) I know Sy Shr Fu, and his lineage. So there is one of 3 options I am trying to clarify 1. The complete lineage through Nam Yang to compare to our own. 2. If they are using Su Shr Fus lineage. 3. If there is another lineage what it is.
David, just read end of your post. I have emailed a few of their instuctors and also their head instructor Dennis Ngo, but not got any reply on this question which I why I am posting for information here. If anyone else has anthing to add, I not so interested in opinions about the organisation, just about the question I have asked regarding the lineage for my own White Crane research. Cheers! Martin
Dennis Ngo studied under Ang Liang Huat in Singapore. The Fujian White Crane style was made famous by Chee See Tsek and his disciple Tee Lay. Fujian White Crane Kung Fu from the same lineage as Yongchun White Crane.
I train in Master Dennis Ngo's club and will just back up what Diamond Geezer said about him training with Master Ang in Singapore. Beyond that, I dont personally know and even if I did I'm not sure it's for me to say. Master Ngo has spent many years researching the lineage of Fujian and Yongchun White Crane (as well as the history of many other styles) and even though I dont know the entire lineage myself I know Master Ngo would have it. It is not something I've ever asked him about it though (I should do at some point) and to be honest am not confident he would be willing to openly share the information with too many people, especially those who arent his students. As for the rest, I'm sorry if its a problem the site is members only, but bear in mind it is a day to day site for members of our club so it's understandable that some of it would be sectioned off. (Just as a note I have also trained with the aforementioned Master Su in China and there is a definite close relationship between the two styles and masters.)
Lineage Thanks for replies. I find it is unusual for someone to claim a direct lineage to a person, but then not say what the lineage is. It is clear to me that the crane they practice is directly descended from a common source to our lineage after the initial generations. Many of the forms are the same / the movements being varied well within the bounds which I would expect. I have worked the Nam Yang association in Singapore, ( which is where I believe Dennis spent most of his younger life studying ) in this comparison which is really where most of the material comes from. I suspect the divergence of our lineages is no more than 2 generation prior to Ang. I am not aware that anyone knows the complete lineage, as I do not think that Master Tan in Singapore knows it and I think he would if it were clearly defined. ( I will be seeing him next month I hope so can check this ). So we know the beginning, and the end of the lineage, but not the middle. And that is the bit which it implies that they know on the web site and the bit I am interested to find out. To give an example, the second form which you do ( Shr San Tai Bau ) only exists in one of the 3 distinct lineages in Yong Chun to my knowledge. If the web site is in fact claiming lineage through Master Su Yin Han and the Yong Chun White Crane that he teaches, then I know that full lineage, as Su Yin Han has mostly studied with the Ong Gong Shr Wu Shu Guan in Yong Chun which is where I study. This lineage, I am not interested in. I too have been researching in Yong Chun since the early 90s but have not found this link. I suspect that if you ask Dennis, the answer will be more complex than the straight lineage diagram which is implied on the web site / but I hope not!! Regarding the variouse societies in china ( like the Yong Chun Research Society or whatever ) this is a group of people who have their own reasons for setting it up and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of all of the lineages in Yong Chun. For example, I am not aware of ANY prior generation members ( i.e. before the generation of current Wu Shu Guan heads ) who are a member of this society, and the ONLY system head I know who is a member is Su Shr Fu. Having said that he is very academic so has great knowledge in these areas. My point is, I have a position of not believing what I am told until I have been there , researched it myself and tried to cross reference it. Most likely, the answer to my question should be 'ahh no you misunderstand what we mean by what is written on our web site, we DONT have the full lineage for the bulk of the work which we have been practicing for the last 20 years only for this bit here etc etc etc....' in which case to my mind the claim on the front of the web site is misleading. This is the lineage where probably FJWC forms should join onto http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/lineage.html from my own research, but I have been unable to work out where as yet. Secrecy about these issues in the arts, is mostly in my experience a cover for other stuff, and in the long term / like mixing of the styles without clear explanation , leads to confusion in the long run about what is from where. Not important UNLESS it is something you are genuinely interested in ( like me ). All this is not necessarily important, and not related to the excellent kung fu that is taught in the association, unless it is written on the front of your website ( which it is ). Is there ANYBODY out there who knows the lineage answer?
White crane boy Just read you trained with master Su in china. So you are similar position to me. You know it comes from the Thee family, via the Nam Yand association in Singapore, and it is extremely unlikely that it did NOT come from Su Shr Fu's Yong Chun crane lineage ( i.e. Ong Gong Shr Wu Shu Guan ) BUT where are the missing steps that join them together? To my mind this is what it implies that you know on your web site / which is what I am trying to find out. In fact there is more complications, because for example there is another group practicing Yong Chun White Crane in Malaysia ( 20 mins from Singapore ) who started around the same time as Master Ang. When you throw this into the equation as well then that lineage claim becomes relevant and interesting. It is my belief that if people know where their stuff comes from, then that knowledge benefits the whole crane family. I think on the other hand, if your group does not know its full lineage then it reflects badly on the whole crane family to claim so on the web site because part of what it is to do this style is strive together towards truth in these matters. I have tried to ask variouse instructors in your clubs the answers to these questions without reply, which is why I am now asking in a public forum. May be it would be possible for you to print this thread out and take it to a session and try to get an answer there. I am in the UK next Thursday night and quite happy to meet up with ANYONE who knows the answers to these questions, but unfortunately Dennis has an injury and is not going to be in London that night. If either of you is able to set up a meeting with anyone who might know the truth on these matters, then I would very much appreciate it. Martin Watts www.fujianbaihe.com www.yongchunbaihechuen.com
Martin, greetings. I sent you a file via email of what I have on this lineage. Let me know if it is what you were seeking. Best wishes
Lineage Ron, No it is not. I am looking for full lineage back to Fan Qui Niang as is claimed on their web site. I am most interested to hear from any members of the club if they know the lineage. It is possible that I will have the complete lineage for the Yong Chun White Crane part of their work when I complete my investigations in Singapore - Malaysia next month, but I am not sure yet until I do the ground work. This lineage will not apply to the other parts of their kung fu. Martin Watts
Just wanted to bring this topic up. Is there still some people in this forum training with Dennis Ngo in this TWC club ?
