White Crane, Internal ?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by FuriousStyles, Oct 3, 2003.

  1. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    I'm not going to waste too much internal energy on this debate as it seem's to be going, but I will offer my opinion regarding the original question.

    My answer is; No it isn't.

    Why not? It has elements of internal cultivation but this does not make it an internal art. Bread that has sultana's in it doesn't make wine I'm afraid.

    Will I be cruel and bring up the 1954 Macao fight between Taiji and White Crane? Nahhhh.

    Best, Syd
  2. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Best not to bring that up Syd!

    btw - does anyone know how to access a clip of that fight on the internet? The one link I've found to it is not working.
  3. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Hey Rich,

    Yeah mate I am looking for a freebie download also. Cyberkwoon has it there but you need to acrew these download points or something in order to be able to access it. I believe they have the whole thing sitting there just out of tantalizing reach!

    best, Syd
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2003
  4. imperial_guardz

    imperial_guardz Master In Training

    Ask a true White Crane Practitioner!

    frig man...all you people...blabbing on dissing other styles and so forth...Each style has their own qualities that can be an advantage or disadvange depending on many factors...

    ...But getting back to the ORIGINAL topic...Internal and External aspects are found in many martial arts styles; some have more influence in external than internal and vice versa.

    Southern Shaolin Flying White Crane (Nan Shao Lin Fei Bai Heir Chuan) is a balance of both external and internal power. Both external and internal powers are used during combat. The Shaolin Branch of White Crane utilizes the "Phoenix Eye" fist, which is an IMA fist which required very little power if used properly. Look up "Phoenix Eye" fist online to learn more about it.
    As well as the phoenix eye fist, white crane also uses "Tiger Claw" as well...truely an external style! The balance is found within the style. There is a balance of External and Internal power in White Crane Kung Fu...both must be used to succeed.
    Hope that answers your question...
  5. killerbeez

    killerbeez New Member

    In addition, southern white crane include many internal force like in the swalowing concept for exemple. Has you get more experience it is said that it's ONE of the kung fu style that uses more and more internal force at it's expert forms in conjuction with the needed external force. The phoenix eye's is also used in bagua one of the pure internal art. Hopes it help a bit...
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2006
  6. Durkhrod Chogori

    Durkhrod Chogori Valued Member

    Nothing beats the highest Martial Art of all:

    Supreme Ultimate Fist.

    I met one of the highest Bagua masters today (Yin Fu) and he told me that after teaching Bagua for 20 years he has started to understand the complexity of Taiji (Yang style). Yang style is the most internal and the deepest art. In other words if you master Taiji you are unbeatable. But only few really attain that goal due to the spiritual component involved.

    Last edited: Jan 6, 2006
  7. Ziranmen

    Ziranmen New Member

    That would be Liu He Tang Lang.

    It's not totally internal though, esp if compared to the Xing Yi, Ba Gua etc. the system has some external elements. It's kind of half half. There is one form in particular though that has no external bits and is very much like Xing Yi.
  8. Uncle Bill

    Uncle Bill Valued Member

    'Internal' is simply a word used by some practitioners of martial arts to make it sound as if their chosen art is in some way ***superior*** to that of practitioners of other so-called 'external' styles.
  9. clfsean

    clfsean Mo Lum Yat Ga

    All CMA's use Hei Gung & Noi Gung. Some may focus on one more than the other, but you can't have one without the other.
  10. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    As I understand it, the difference between an internal art and an exernal is: in an internal art, you train to move your chi energy. In an external art, you train to move your body.

    I practiced five ancestor fist for 2 years. It is definitely a soft system. Breaking bricks with ones head and bending iron bars is not an aspect of five ancestor fist. Also, don't base your perception of a system on a single practitioner. Our sanchin form is totally soft and relaxed. The catchings for it are likewise. There is no tension or hard energy. All the techniques are circular and soft.

    There is another "version" of five ancestor fist called Ngo Cho Kuen. It is much harder, and it's sanchin is a dynamic tension exercise. I beleive this is the art that you refer to.

    That's rubbish. Don't go posting this tripe anywhere besides the internal arts/tai chi forums or you'll get taken to task.
  11. KRONOS

    KRONOS Valued Member

    Thanks I needed a laugh. :D
  12. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    1. No stretches and warm ups

    In Choy Lay Fut we warm up. Ever since MMA I've started to skip rope before stretching.

    2. Reliance on Chi

    Haven't learned any "internal" forms yet.

    3. Blending with an attack

    Yin Yan Chop Choy to "slide over" any straight punches, slide over parries, and grind/ghost bridge off of the opponent limb essentially. Kum Jong to parry/redirect the incoming strike.

    4. Yielding

    No so much "yielding" as "slipping" past their strikes. I'm sure it's very different.

    5. Power comes from within

    All power comes from within anyways. . . right? In Boxing and Muay Thai we're taught to draw power up from the ground, through the hips and out the arms, EXACTLY the same as what I've been taught in CMA. Just different biomechanics for doing it.

    6. Relaxed

    Choy Lay Fut is VERY relaxed up until the point right before impact. For me, that's when everything changes and the power explodes from the striking areas.

    7. Fluid

    Choy Lay Fut is extremely fluid. I find most other EMAs, even some IMAs to be "less fluid."

    8. Slow forms

    I practice my forms slowly occasionally. It is excellent for technique practice.

    9. Finesse

    I am not 100% reliant on size and strength. I'm 5'5", 135 lbs. . . . I train to evade, come in, and be aggressive. Sure strength is important, but for a person like me finesse is more important.

    10. Indirect

    What do you mean by this?

    11. Circular

    Poon Kiu Sau Choy. Nuff said.

    12. Accepting what is

    By slipping their attacks. . . I've accepted. Now it's my turn to hit back.

    13. I wait for you to attack

    I don't.

    14. Acknowledging the limitations of the self

    Um. . . .every real fighter knows he's got alot of limitations.

    15. Winning without fighting is best

    Agreed. Most of the time.

    16. Hard vs Soft and Soft Vs Hard

    Panther Fists to hit soft parts. Kum Jongs, Palm strikes to hit hard parts. Shin kicks to the thighs. Forearm strikes to the neck. Soft v. Hard, Hard v. Soft

    17. Deflect a force

    Poon Kius, Gwa Choys, Kup Choys, Sau Choys, Chuen Nas, Biu Jongs. These are all deflection/destructions.

    18. Meditative training

    I do that on my own time.

    From the results. . . . we see some differences, but more similiarities IMO from what you've posted.

    Therefore, are EMAs and IMAs that different at all?
  13. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Those things that you listed are all SYMPTOMS of being an external or internal art, not what makes the art internal or external.

    In internal arts you begin by moving chi/energy.

    In external arts you begin by moving your body.

    I think that is the difference.
  14. PlumDragon

    PlumDragon "I am your evil stimulus"

    Internal arts need not have anything more to do with moving qi than external.
    You can become amazing at xing yi, etc and never hear a reference to qi. Gaining internal martial skill is a result of the methodology of going about refining bodily mechanics on the whole. Things like zhang zhuan training help with nei gong aspects, but a xing yi practicioner develops much of their power doing bodily movement and harmonizing the links between muscles, joints, bones, etc.
  15. Andrew

    Andrew New Member

    Once again, everyone reads their own interpretation of internal and external.

    I'll give you my definition, Internal is an approach to training. Any movement can be internal, any system can be internal if you obey the tenants involved.

    Firstly for all those talking of moving the chi. Can you do it? Can you feel it? Can you make it work? If you can then maybe you can tell us how. Otherwise, be quiet. Such interpretations only help to confuse people and cloud the real story. Such interpretations are the product of people with poor skill and poor understanding of chinese culture.

    1. Internal skills are firstly physical. If you use no muscle then you're arms would fall down. What the term is meant to express.
    Is that you try and build strong structural connectivity. You aim to o shift your primary mobilisers to your base. Relaxing means that you can feel wether you are achieveing this. Thats why people talk about using the mind. You need to concentrate in order to question your structure, in order to check that your alignment. This is why its also internal, as in the mind. As you question yourself over your structure. You go slowly, to check the alignments. To ensure that the body is moving according to the basic tenants; body as one family.

    2. By using your base as the primary mobliser. Your arms can relax, they can become sensitive giving you the listening power.
    The peng jin.

    3. The final stage of internal training is to use the musclature of the body to augment your movements. If you want to know how too do that, ask your Sifu.

    If you've got all that in your system or your training then you're internal according to my standards.

  16. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    PD and A make good statements.As I've said before,the only measurable difference twixt internal/external training or technique are the body mechanics utilized in the internal,some are very different,while some are the same but ,as stated above,are more acutely developed than generally.
  17. KRONOS

    KRONOS Valued Member

    My 2Cents

    This is the crucial difference in thinking that power coming from the center looks or feels like boxing, muay thai, etc.

    Sure there are all the similarities that you mentioned but if you don't truly have this, then its not really internal.

    Its why some people can see a vid clip of a good internal martial artist and say 'wow' he's really good and other people see it and ask what is so special.

    If you don't have it ingrained in your own body, you don't know what to look for and can't see it.

    There are techniques and ideas that are left out internal arts simply because they can't be done with the proper bio-mechanics and internal connections/ roots. If a system is full of these moves its hard too consider that it's really an IMA.

    Nice post andrew, and again for emphasis:

    "Firstly for all those talking of moving the chi. Can you do it? Can you feel it? Can you make it work? If you can then maybe you can tell us how. Otherwise, be quiet. Such interpretations only help to confuse people and cloud the real story. Such interpretations are the product of people with poor skill and poor understanding of chinese culture."
  18. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    2 cents?That was worth a buck oh five. :)
  19. sparrow

    sparrow Chirp!

    I've practiced Goju Ryu and still train Taiji Chuan, which in our school includes some White Crane - the 'fast fist'. This, as you might have guessed, is fast and springy, it uses all the principles used inthe TC form but at speed. We are also attempting to learn a pure White Crane form, still struggling with the choreography. As far as Goju Ryu goes, I'm not sure of the internal aspects as I only did it for a couple of years, but there are lots of parallels and knowing both a soft and a hard(er) MA is very useful. Incidentally, I had the same teacher for both disciplines.
    IMO, I would personally say that 'internal' goes beyond biomechanics, and involves deeper levels of mind, intention and awareness - but maybe that's the Taiji hippy in me!!
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2006
  20. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    But for the rough catagorization purposes of internal/external there's no objective way to compare who has deeper intent,awareness,etc.I do agree with you,Sparrow,the emphasis on such things for internal training.But body methods are the only "concrete" ways to compare.
    As far as moving energy,the body has to learn things to do this in an internal manner.It isn't just mental practice.So the expression of internal energy in a CMA way is actualized by body method,which may be observed.

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