White Crane books and DVDs

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Sandy, Jul 7, 2016.

  1. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Here's the URL, and in all honesty I did make a mistake about this being related to Tai Chi Chuan, it's just another form of Fujian Single Leg Flying Crane. My mistake. I mixed the picture up with another site I had been reading.

    http://www.martialartshelponline.com/2013/08/fujian-white-crane-kung-fu/

    Even so, my point remains, it's in Hung gar, along with other Fujian White Crane techniques, as are other Tai Chi Chuan Crane movements like Crane Spreads Wings, as are the Lion's Roar White Crane techniques mentioned (particularly in the Iron Wire).

    The reason for this is at least by oral tradition that Lion's Roar was taught to Leung Kwan, aka Tid Kiu Saam the Iron Bridge #3. That's the origin of the 'Tibetan' but actually ethnic Chinese White Crane from Qinghai. It was also taught to Wong Fei Hung, who likely already knew Fujianese White Crane from his father's southern style, which was the more traditional Hung Kuen.

    That Hung Kuen of Hung Hei Gun, though, came one generation earlier, and he was known to have sought out and married Fong Wing Chun, a Fujian White Crane master from Yong Chun, and that's the source of his Tiger Crane. Not necessarily, but possibly this was another name for Yim Wing Chun. Either way, they were female martial artists from Fujian known to have either created or at least mastered Fujian White Crane boxing.

    So Hung Hei Gun had a direct Fujian White Crane influence, and Leung Kwan was the student of Sing Lung of the Lion's Roar. Wong Fei Hung's system includes his own modernized Tiger Crane Paired Fist, and Leung Kwan's Iron Wire, so it effectively converges both lineages.

    It's not as simple as north goes south. A specific type of northwestern kung fu traveled to southeast China, where it found several students who were also well versed in much more ancient Fujian Shaolin arts (including White Crane), Tai Chi Chuan, Wing Chun, and village Hung Kuen.

    If this is all right, then the Crane techniques in the so-called 'village' Hung Kuen are closer to Fujian Crane in nature, and the 19th+ century Wong Fei Hung schools (primarily Dang Fong, Lam Sai Wing) are where both Fujian and Lion's Roar White Crane material is also found, since the direct influence of Lion's Roar on Hung gar can be specifically traced to those two people (Leung Kwan and Wong Fei Hung). Lam Sai Wing appears to have removed some of the Tai Chi material from his books, but kept the Fujian Crane and Lion's Roar. At least that's what it looks like.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016
  2. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    If Hung Hei Gung actually existed in the time frame he's supposed to then he could not have married Fong Wing Chun who we know did exist and was already past middle age in the 1680s. Hung Hei Gung's connection with Fujian is that he was supposedly a disciple at the Fujian Shaolin Temple which most respected martial arts historians say never existed.
    He also couldn't have been married to Yim Wing Chun because a) she was supposed to be married to someone else and b) she almost certainly never existed.
    All of these things are examples of the type of martial arts creation myths that sprang up in the late Qing and Republican periods, drawing elements of real martial arts history (Fong Wing Chun) the Cantonese Wuxia tradition (Fujian Shaolin Temple, the general structure of the myth) and triad pseudo history (the Shaolin five elders, Gee Sim in Hung Gar, Ng Mui in Wing Chun, although the triad five elders are different) and reforming them into a new legend which links the style to a glorious history that never actually existed.
     
  3. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    The problem with looking at village Hung is there no solid evidence that it's Hung Gar. Indeed it's self identification as Hung is likely due to the success of Lam Sai Wing's books in the period when martial arts branding became a thing. As I said before Hung Gar is part of a late 18th century Cantonese martial arts tradition and is structurally similar to other styles in that tradition, so in this period it would have been very simple for small styles to rebrand themselves (and don't forget the Hung Gar identity itself could be a rebranding exercise). However styles within this Cantonese tradition that don't identify as Hung in any way also contain the Hok Jui techniques that we would consider distinctive of Hung Gar, suggesting that there is a definite body of Cantonese crane techniques. Hok Jui however isn't a major technique in Fujian crane, with phoenix eye fist being used more often.
    I'm struggling to see what techniques in Hung are Fujian over Hop Gar?
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016
  4. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    The Fujian Shaolin influence and archaeology in the south is undeniable, whether or not any physical structures existed. Martial arts history is pretty settled on that subject, notwithstanding the location any of 'legendary' location. The same can be said of Songshan Shaolin Si proper.

    But what's really interesting is that if you can prove or show a source for the confirmed age of Yong Wing Chun, and she's the same Fujian Crane master in the oral histories, then 'marry' might not be a literal connotation. Hung hei gun was supposedly born in the early 18th century, if what you say is true (where is the source for the 1680 data again brother?) then 'marry' may not have meant wed, but it may be a metaphor for whoever it was (Hung Hei Gun, or whoever his figure represents) 'married' the Shaolin tiger style with Fujian White Crane.

    I don't know if you can say she almost certainly never existed. She may have, or her story may address another real person, as is more often the case. But clearly, she's more likely to have been a real person than Ng Mui.

    Be careful with this kind of statement, respectfully, 'never actually existed'. People say this about Jesus Christ, the Holocaust. It implies a denial bias. While you can say the evidence for the existence for Gee Sim, Ng Mui is scant, there is ample evidence of real history behind them. What's more accurate than 'never actually existed' is 'is a mix of history and fiction'. And that's what I like to do, find the historical gems in all the mess of wuxia and so on.

    Well, Having been shown different types of village Hung gar, I have to respectfully disagree there is no solid evidence. I think you would find there is a lot of overlap, but significant things missing, such as the Iron Wire. The way I rationalize this logically is that again, "north->south" is not really accurate. Shaolin spread to all corners of China, not just south, and then it traveled in alternate directions, such as the Chinese Buddhist influenced Lion's Roar White Crane. What you have in the latter Ming/Early Ching era is a rejoining of threads in the Southeast, by scholars. Wong Fei Hung would have known all about Tai Chi, and Mantis, and Wing Chun, and all the Northern styles. To say he was a master of Hung gar is to miss the part about how he was a scholar of all Chinese martial arts (especially since, according to the history, he was adamant about mixing his Hung Gar with other styles, the source of his fame).

    I put together a visual comparison for you, just 4 techniques. There are probably a few others that I can't find in the Lam Sai Wing books, but I might be able to find more. I also don't know what, if any Fujian material could be in the Five Animal/Five Elements form. Yet :D

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016
  5. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

  6. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    You caution me on denial bias while demonstrating ridiculous levels of confirmation bias. I didn't come to the evidence looking for an outcome, I was led to the outcome by the evidence. You however in this very post have shown that you will perform all manner of mental gymnastics to sustain your belief in a myth.
    The Imperial Gazette for Yongchun in the 1680s describes the martial artists of Yongchun to be disciples of a woman who moved to the area with her husband and set up a martial arts school. This is undoubtedly the woman we know as Fong Wing Chun.
    Ng Mui is a fictional character who first appeared in the classic late Qing novel Evergreen. In that novel she is not one of the five elders but instead an Imperial agent hunting rebels. It's not until the 1930s that she is cast as a Shaolin elder, which nicely helps us date the Wing Chun myth.
    The first picture is conceptually similar but structurally different, which kind of underlines what I mean about the differences being important. ALL of those movements are present in Tibetan crane and in Cantonese systems that don't claim descent from Hung Hei Gung.
     
  7. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Ben please please stop saying about that to the audience, thanks, about my beliefs in myths what a cheap shot. You clearly don't know what you're talking about with regard and don't seem to want to discuss the ample material I've posted both myth versus history and the overlap, you simply pick at pedantic loose threads that are quite frankly, mundane and a waste of my time here. I want to talk about real, concrete things and your continued retorts are basically "it's make believe! it's just wuxia!, that person wasn't a real person", when we both know it's not that simple.. WE can use that silly argument to describe nearly all of Chinese history. I'm interested in only the truth.

    Listen man, you can lecture me on the wuxia, the Shaolin legends, and so forth. I keep showing you picture, video, and even written historical evidence but you don't want to discuss that, you want to try to paint me as a believer of mythology??? :D Come on, I think I deserve more respect than that given my efforts here.

    The connections between Tibetan Crane, Fujian Crane, and Dang Fong and Lam Sai Wing Hung Gar are pretty self self-evident to me and this was supported by not only my own sifus but Fujian White Crane sifus! They're supported in the myths and legends as well as the oral AND written traditions of all the arts, and the pictures, and the videos.

    If someone watches this video and can't see the connections between Fujian Tiger/Crane, and Hung Gar's version, I don't get it. If they can't connect obvious, basic things like the Hung Gar Hero's bow and the same movements from Fujian Crane, you must not know that much of either system, I guess. And how about the weapons work? I could have re-labeled the weapons work here as Hung gar staff and spear and saber? Who would notice the difference? There's very little difference, that's the truth.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stZLdehUU2g"]White Crane Kung Fu 1 - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
  8. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    I searched long and hard to find the silver bullet and it was not in vain. I found a picture of Gordon Liu peforming the Fujian White Crane Spreads Wings version of the Hung gar salute. This is an advanced Hung gar bow, unlike the standard bows learned in the initial Taming the Tiger and Tiger Crane Paired Fist forms. :D Hard to catch on tape, so few progenitors of the more senior, Fujian bow in the Wong Fei Hung lineage. I know I've seen Gordon also discuss the Fujian origins of Hung gar in documentaries. It should have been an obvious first reference, my apologies. Best wishes and health, btw Gordon ;)

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2016
  9. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    I have addressed the techniques. All of the techniques you've shown are found in Tibetan crane systems (including the one you've just posted) and are therefore not evidence of a link to Fujian crane. Yes, Flying Crane does have some superficial similarities to Hung Gar, but A) it's more modern than Hung Gar, B) has come through Malaysia and Singapore which tends to have a melting pot effect on CMA and C) it actually looks REALLY like Choy Gar which claims no relationship to it whatsoever so superficial visual similarities are not evidence of relationship.
    Chinese martial arts teachers are notoriously poor sources for martial arts history as they often fail to differentiate myth and legend.
    Perhaps the big question is if Hung Kuen contains Fujian crane, why is 3 battles, the core of Fujian martial arts, not part of the system? Seriously if Fujian crane was an influence on Hung Kuen I'd expect 3 battles to be part of the Hoi Jong.
     
  10. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    I'll argue that what I know of the 3 battles is the elements of it are indeed in Hung gar (at least Wong Fei Hung's curriculum), and that even if a lot of what you've seen appears to be related to Tibetan (really northwestern Chinese) White Crane and other Five southern family systems, it doesn't in any way dismiss the relationship between Fujian and Guangdong Hung gar. When I watch certain Hung gar videos, I can see the Tibetab influences. When I watch those I am most familiar with, I see both Tibetan and Fujianese elements (and that's been explained by several different Hung gar schools I've interacted with, but ALSO White Crane schools I've never heard of before).

    I was not only in discussions with a number of Hung gar students about this, who all agreed Fujianese systems were 'absorbed' into Hung gar (in other words everyone's teaching and notes are consistent on the matter of Fujian), but also this gem was mentioned to me (I was previously unaware of this fact): Are you aware that Wong Fei Hung was deployed in the military in Fujian and was well known to have had a mastery of many Fujian styles by latter age, and that all sorts of Fujian systems including weapons work made their way into his school's curriculum? I think it's possible that Fei hung's fame as a Hung gar master, may have caused people to forget he was one of China's most notable scholars of Chinese martial arts in general...clearly he was greatly influenced by his time serving in Fujian. So he may have made an effort to include the Fujianese ancestry in a more obvious way (notably in things like the Fujianese bow of the advanced Tiger Crane).

    Essentially, the legendary (supported by evidence) relationship between Hung Kuen and Fujian systems existed for centuries by the 19th century, and apparently Wong Fei Hung formalized this "familial" relationship, and his school system by the time it was being taught by Lam Sai Wing and other proponents, included everything Fei Hung had ever been taught (Tibetan, Songshan Shaolin, Fujianese, and Cantonese). And then he likely took similar things, and simplified the course material, so that today, you might look and see something 'Tibetan', something more 'Fujianese' if you've studied White Crane, and so on. I think you could say the thing about the relationship between Choy Li Fut and Hung gar....so much is similar, is it not? It's impossible to know if something is in both if it was in one or the other first (probably), but somewhere back in the history, there's a reason.

    I know I can't convince you of this, because you will keep seeing Lion's Roar or other elements you know (or were taught) are the real source of Hung gar Crane. But again my argument (supported by Dang Fong Hung gar and Lam Sai Wing schools, but also White Crane schools), is that that it's in the eye of the beholder. You may not even receive most of the Fujianese 'style' until later on in the Hung gar system..which has been my experience with things like the Hung gar Hero's bow...which according to what I have been taught, is a clear homage to Fujian White Crane (and definitely not Tibetan).

    Are you familiar with this "Hero's bow"? This is an alternate Hung gar bow usually taught once the full Tiger Crane Paired Fist has been learned (with the standard bow).
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
  11. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Im curious how you would know the above bolded points seeing as you only studied hung for a little while and didnt learn all the core sets? What other styles have you studied in depth, not seen videos of, or read about but actually studied with teachers so you can compare more than surface picture snaps shots but the core essence of those arts?

    serious question as you are hinting that Ben has limited knowledge/or a stilted view of the hung style and saying you are backed up by various lineages and writings, yet all you have posted so far is a photo, i would have thought someone claiming to have more evidence and authority would have posted something more concert?

    Bens experience in chinese martial arts not just hung gar, is well known, he has extensive expertise in hung gar through one of his teachers i believe, and the link to Lions roar on hung gar and other southern styles has been documented by other teachers on various forums and in print
     
  12. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Thanks icefield I would love to explain.

    I've actually been studying Hung Kuen for several years, with some time off from official school attendance, but kept in touch and interact/train with several Hung Kuen schools and students disciples and Sifus whenever I can. Some of these folks are also 'canonical' White Crane versed and so I've learned some of that style as well. I take exceptional notes and I ask a lot of questions from senior students, disciples, and sifus and then I try to marry it up with historical records that are verifiable (and some that aren't so verifiable, but fit somewhere in the chain).

    At this point I've learned the first core sets like Taming the Tiger in "I' pattern and the Tiger Crane Paired Fist (in other words I've only gotten some basic instruction on the more advanced sets, but that's included all the material I'm discussing. In other words, nothing I'm addressing is stuff I haven't studied formally in some way.

    I wouldn't discuss this topic so thoroughly if I hadn't actually studied the 'core essence', I don't do that sort of thing. So I am fairly comfortable discussion the Hung Kuen Tiger Crane, Taming the Tiger, and some of the more advanced elements I've learned from the other sets (while not learning the full, sequential sets, the core essence is pretty straightforward).

    Well no, I have no idea what Ben's knowledge is or isn't but I don't think he has limited anything. I was pretty sure he said he had not spent a lot of time training in Dang Fong or Lam Sai Wing Hung gar (which is what I've been posting videos/pictures of).

    And I've posted FAR more than 'one photo'? I've posted a whole range of photographs, hanzi, video interviews with White Crane Sifus, Hung Kuen class information/notes, and so on. From my perspective I've posted a mountain of supporting material.

    So far, no one has been posting anything linking anything we've discussed to non-Fujian styles. So I'd ask humbly if Ben is so sure of what he's posting to counter my evidence, he post evidence of his own. Note that his evidence won't dismiss the Fujian-Hung Kuen connection, it will simply be parallel to what we already know (that modern Hung Kuen as taught in many schools contains both Lion's Roar AND Fujian White Crane material, because not only was Wong Fei Hung a student of both, apparently so was the figure of Hung Hei Gun in the old legends).

    For instance, someone could post some pictures of Tibetan White Crane that as identical to Lam Sai Wings poses as the Fujian White Crane techniques are, or Gordon Liu doing the Fujianese Tiger Crane Bow (which if you learn this, is just a combination of Fujianese White Crane Spreads Wings with the Empty Leg Stance (diu ma) common to many Southern art.

    So has the link to Fujian, which has kind of been my point. Hung Kuen is as linked to Fujian as it is to Canton. This isn't a new relationship it's so old that it's had a great deal of time to percolate.

    If you do a Wikipedia search online for Hung gar, you'll read all about the Tibetan influences and so on, which are obviously supported by evidence. But it doesn't take much more effort to find all the Fujian references, especially once you spend enough time in Hung Kuen to learn what about Hung Kuen is from Fujian. The answer is: a lot! And in my defense, that's not my opinion or something I pulled out of a hat. The White Crane Sifu in the Kung Fu question video said essentially the same exact thing.

    So, I respectfully ask that you read through the whole thread, and note all the identical pictures, writings and so on that clearly link Cantonese Hung Kuen with Fujianese Shaolin, White Crane, Wing Chun and similar influences. Let's not just go by what Wikipedia says, but what the whole picture is saying. Again, all I ask is let's have a frank discussion assuming we all know what we're talking about. I've already posted a lot of material showing not just similarity, but identical matches between Fujianese White Crane and Wong Fei Hung Hung Gar Kuen (including the EXACT names of techniques!). All I ask is if it's true that Tibetan White Crane is the only White Crane influence on Hung Kuen (which I don't agree with, and think there is plenty of counter-evidence against), show us the pictures/videos of that style. At least then people can compare with their eyes, and not their imaginations.

    Honestly, I've had this discussion now with a range of people in the Hung Kuen and White Crane families, but it wasn't until this thread in MAP I'd ever heard anyone dismiss it. So I apologize if I ask for a stronger burden of proof from Ben or others. Otherwise they have to address Lam Sai Wing displaying Fujianese White Crane techniques, Gordon Liu, why the names of White Crane techniques in Fujiane share names with Crane (and Snake) techniques from Cantonese Hung gar, and ultimately, why all the White Crane sifus seem to suggest Fujianese White Crane and Southern Boxing (the nan quan) in general have a lot of family history.

    The short short version is that anybody can go Google information on Hung Kuen and read that it has Lion's Roar material. But you can not only read about Hung Kuen's Fujian roots, you can find ample video and picture evidence. and on top of all that, the hanzi, don't forget, is 100% identical between Fujian White Crane and several dozen techniques in the Hung Kuen Five Animal and Five Element system. When systems share the exact same hanzi sequence for similar techniques, you can't really deny on the historical connection between them (EVEN if, as I think Ben alludes to, someone didn't learn it 'that way'). My teachers taught me the connection between Hung Kuen and Fujian, they also taught me where to go for more information and research, which is why I am confident. If all I had was legend and myth I could see Ben's points, but I have real evidence (and a lot of it, right up to the words of White Crane sifus and Gordon Liu in his prime!).
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
  13. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    So, here. If I pull the hanzi names from Hung Kuen and Fujian White Crane, they are the same for each of these positions.

    Can anybody post different Lion's Roar (or really, any Chinese style) hanzi or pictured poses like I've done here, that would at least show that all of these are in the Tibetan White Crane?

    [​IMG]

    Also, there was this formal Fujian White Crane sequence. Now, anybody with the Hung Gar books/notes should note that there are a huge number of identical techniques in this list that are in Hung Gar sets. While some may be a little different, some are identical.

    We could spend a lot of time on this list and confirm the common techniques (which I have), but let's focus on the simple: 金(jīn) 鸡(jī) 独(dú) 立(lì) The golden cockerel standing on one leg, is hallmark of Fujianese White Crane, AND Hung Kuen Crane Style.

    Now, if anybody can show this technique both in hanzi and picture form from Tibetan White Crane, then things will get more interesting (but probably, it will just expose the true family history between all the styles, which I argue is a lot more complex than what most people are familiar with, and why saying "The Crane in Hung Kuen is Tibetan White Crane" is not really accurate).

    If desired, I'm prepared to go over all of the techniques highlighted below, and most of them will be identical (in name, in picture, in technique) between Fujian White Crane and Hung Gar Crane style.

    1. 招(zhāo) 陽(yánɡ) 開(kāi) 式(shì) Opening salute to the sun
    2. 十(shí) 字(zì) 手(shǒu) 式(shì) The cross
    3. 將(jiānɡ) 軍(jūn) 抱(bào) 印(yìn) The General carrying his seal
    4. 双(shuānɡ) 肩(jiān) 齊(qí) 墜(zhuì) Two shoulders going downwards
    5. 金(jīn) 剪(jiǎn) 手(shǒu) 式(shì) The Golden Scissors
    6. 盤(pán) 古(ɡǔ) 開(kāi) 天(tiān) The beginning of heaven and earth (Pan Gu opens heaven)
    7. 餓(è) 虎(hǔ) 擒(qín) 羊(yánɡ) The hungry tiger grasping a goat
    8. 故(ɡù) 树(shù) 盤(pán) 根(ɡēn) The old tree shaking its roots
    9. 金(jīn) 鸡(jī) 独(dú) 立(lì) The golden cockerel standing on one leg
    10. 瞛(cōnɡ) 跳(tiào) 脚(jiǎo) 式(shì) The leap
    11. 仙(xiān) 人(rén) 撒(sā) 網(wǎnɡ) The Immortal casting his net
    12. 魁(kuí) 星(xīnɡ) 踢(tī) 斗(dòu) The sage (Kui Xing) appoints a scholar
    13. 鐵(tiě) 槌(chuí) 沉(chén) 江(jiānɡ) The hammer sinks into the river
    14. 双(shuānɡ) 轉(zhuǎn) 十(shí) 字(zì) Double turns of the cross
    15. 敲(qiāo) 鐘(zhōnɡ) 擂(léi) 鼓(ɡǔ) Ringing the bell and beating the drum
    16. 招(zhāo) 阳(yánɡ) 手(shǒu) 式(shì) Salute to the sun
    17. 旋(xuán) 转(zhuǎn) 十(shí) 字(zì) The spinning cross
    18. 金(jīn) 剪(jiǎn) 手(shǒu) 式(shì) The golden scissors
    19. 撥(bō) 草(cǎo) 尋(xún) 蛇(shé) Part the grass to find the snake
    20. 蝴(hú) 蝶(dié) 雙(shuānɡ) 飛(fēi) Two butterflies flying together
    21. 云(yún) 开(kāi) 见(jiàn) 月(yuè) Clear the clouds to see the moon
    22. 冲(chōnɡ) 天(tiān) 炮(pào) 式(shì) The firework shooting to the sky
    23. 仙(xiān) 人(rén) 推(tuī) 磨(mó) The sage grinding the rice mill
    24. 百(bǎi) 鸟(niǎo) 归(ɡuī) 巢(cháo) A 100 birds returning to their nests
    25. 鸳 鸯(yānɡ) 找(zhǎo) 窝(wō) The mandarin duck searches for its nest
    26. 猛(měnɡ) 虎(hǔ) 归(ɡuī) 山(shān) The ferocious tiger returns to the mountain
    27. 白(bái) 马(mǎ) 捨(shě) 鞍(ān)(右(yòu)) The white horse sheds its saddle (right)
    28 白(bái) 马(mǎ) 捨(shě) 鞍(ān)(左(zuǒ)) The white horse sheds its saddle (left)
    29. 旋(xuán) 转(zhuǎn) 金(jīn) 剪(jiǎn) The whirling golden scissors
    30. 撥(bō) 草(cǎo) 尋(xún) 蛇(shé) Parting the grass to find the snake
    31. 蝴(hú) 蝶(dié) 雙(shuānɡ) 飛(fēi) Two butterflies flying together
    32. 云(yún) 开(kāi) 见(jiàn) 月(yuè) Clear the clouds to see the moon
    33. 冲(chōnɡ) 天(tiān) 炮(pào) 式(shì) The firework shooting to the sky
    34. 仙(xiān) 人(rén) 推(tuī) 磨(mó) The sage grinding the rice mill
    35. 百(bǎi) 鸟(niǎo) 归(ɡuī) 巢(cháo) A 100 birds returning to their nests
    36. 鶯(yīnɡ) 鸯(yānɡ) 找(zhǎo) 窝(wō) The mandarin duck search for its nest
    37. 猛(měnɡ) 虎(hǔ) 归(ɡuī) 山(shān) The ferocious tiger returns to the mountain
    38. 白(bái) 马(mǎ) 捨(shě) 鞍(ān)(右(yòu)) The white horse sheds its saddle (right)
    39. 白(bái) 马(mǎ) 捨(shě) 鞍(ān)(左(zuǒ)) The white horse sheds its saddle (left)
    40. 挑(tiāo) 手(shǒu) 踏(tà) 式(shì) The sweep of arm and leg
    41. 懒(lǎn) 虎(hǔ) 伸(shēn) 腰(yāo) The lazy tiger stretching its back
    42. 双(shuānɡ) 燕(yàn) 齐(qí) 垂(chuí) Two swallows diving together
    43. 双(shuānɡ) 脚(jiǎo) 正(zhènɡ) 立(lì) Both legs come together
    44. 连(lián) 环(huán) 脚(jiǎo) 式(shì) Consecutive kicks
    45. 双(shuānɡ) 龙(lónɡ) 出(chū) 海(hǎi) Two dragons rushing out of the sea
    46. 半(bàn) 壁(bì) 开(kāi) 锁(suǒ) Opening the lock on the wall
    47. 仙(xiān) 女(nǚ) 散(sàn) 花(huā) The fairy scattering petals
    48. 霸(bà) 王(wánɡ) 开(kāi) 弓(ɡōnɡ) The tyrant stretching his bow
    49. 狮(shī) 子(zi) 开(kāi) 口(kǒu) The lion cub opening its mouth (right)
    50. 狮(shī) 子(zi) 开(kāi) 口(kǒu) The lion cub opening its mouth (left)
    51 . 大(dà) 鹏(pénɡ) 展(zhǎn) 翅(chì) The roc spreading its wings
    52. 仙(xiān) 人(rén) 指(zhǐ) 路(lù) The immortal pointing the way
    53. 双(shuānɡ) 燕(yàn) 吐(tǔ) 艳(yàn) Two swallows spitting
    54. 毒(dú) 蛇(shé) 鎻(suǒ) 喉(hóu) The poisonous snake grasping the throat
    55. 白(bái) 鹤(hè) 冲(chōnɡ) 天(tiān) The white crane soars in to the sky
    56. 箫(xiāo) 公(ɡōnɡ) 摇(yáo) 橹(lǔ) The boatman rowing the boat
    57. 小(xiǎo) 鬼(ɡuǐ) 堆(duī) 舟(zhōu) The little devil pushing the boat
    58. 莲(lián) 花(huā) 献(xiàn) 水(shuǐ) The lotus flower sprinkling water
    59. 收(shōu) 回(huí) 十(shí) 字(zì) Returning to the cross
    60. 风(fēnɡ) 扫(sǎo) 柳(liǔ) 叶(yè) The wind sweeping the willow leaves (right)
    61. 风(fēnɡ) 扫(sǎo) 柳(liǔ) 叶(yè) The wind sweeping the willow leaves (left)
    62. 美(měi) 人(rén) 照(zhào) 镜(jìnɡ) The beauty looking in the mirror
    63. 坐(zuò) 招(zhāo) 阳(yánɡ) 手(shǒu) The final salute to the sun
    64. 十(shí) 字(zì) 分(fēn) 手(shǒu) The parting cross
    65. 孩(hái) 儿(r) 抱(bào) 牌(pái) The child carrying the ancestral tablet
    66. 双(shuānɡ) 肩(jiān) 齐(qí) 垂(chuí) Both shoulders sinking to the ground
     
  14. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Well I certainly never said that
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074994337&postcount=29
    This is seriously the first time I've heard that Wong Fei Hung was a student of Fujian crane. Where did he learn it from?
    I posted a video containing many of them, I can post more if you'd really like. However you've counteracted your own argument. This movement is widespread in Cantonese arts.
    But there's NO verifiable link to Fujian, just a fairytale about a temple that there's no evidence of and a destruction that the world's largest bureaucracy didn't record and the marriage of a mythical figure to another mythical figure who is almost certainly a mythologised version of an older historical figure.
    Tales of the alleged Fujian temple are widespread in Cantonese martial arts because Fujian was the home of the Heaven and Earth Society, a major triad who appear to be the earliest tellers (and likely creators) of the Shaolin myth. Academic work strongly links the agenda driven propaganda of the Heaven and Earth Society, Three Harmonies Society and the Hong Men with the genesis of the Shaolin myth.
    What counter evidence?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof
    Technically you're the person making a proposition (Hung Gar contains Baihe that comes from before Wong Fei Hung's disciples). It's up to you to prove your proposition which you've not done.
    A) He's not, he's performing Hung Gar's crane techniques which come from Wong Yan Lam
    B) Even if he was, Lam Sai Wing DID spend time in Fujian and visited an ancestral crane school. Now bear in mind that the Canonical Hung Gar history comes from Lam Sai Wing's writings and various questions come up.
    A) it's unclear if that form is Fujian crane, it's from an internal system called Sun Frost Crane which is taught as supplemental material by one branch of crane from an ancestor who learned several styles.
    B) You yourself have shown how widespread the names are throughout China
    C) The techniques the names relate to aren't even similar in many cases

    Because they've read Lam Sai Wing's books? Because most of them will never have even seen Hung Gar.
     
  15. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    From many different sources. His father Wong Kei Ying, his other instructors such as Leung Kwan, or any other "Fujian Shaolin" influence, the Ten Tiger influences, that is all South Chinese, not Northwestern Chinese. Wong Fei Hung may have been one of the most learned martial arts scholars in Chinese history, do you disagree with that? Of course not. Access to books, literature, military training across provinces, father was a famous martial artist, and that's before we even get to his later years, and his proficiency at dueling (what he's most famous for). We are talking about martial arts that grew up very short traveling distance. Whatever Fei Hung hadn't learned about various Crane styles by the time he joined the military, he would have definitely picked up during his service in Fujian. The Qinghai influence is just one branch of a large tree of influence in Hung gar, and that tree is truly massive if you start investigating into any particular thread.

    Again brother I'm not dismissing you for one second about the Lama Pai influences, which are written all over the Net, that is common knowledge, but clearly 'modern' Hung gar contains Fujian content and not just Crane from your one source. That's my whole point, and well supported by the truckloads of evidence. Even with proof of all the Qinghai Crane influence, it's not a mutually exclusive situation. There was and always has been an extremely strong influence of all sorts of Fujianese animal styles into Hung gar across many centuries, both the legendary period as well as the slightly better documented modern era. Accrediting all of "Crane" in Hung gar to Lama Pai is truly not possible.

    This is the problem, brother, "Cantonese arts".

    Hung gar is not a 'Cantonese' art.

    Hung gar is a Cantonese-Fujianese-Henanese-Qinghai art. It's far more diverse and complex than Wikipedia or the average school's class notes might suggest. But to many Sifus this is clear as crystal.

    Yes you posted that video and I didn't comment at first because hey...they were all great videos and I didn't want to be a contrarian.

    But the answer is "all of the above". You haven't counteracted anything so much as helped prove my point about Hung gar being a 'mixing pot' of CMA styles. In a way it's very "meta" as they say, which is why there is a spectrum of explanations of the origin or nature of things, from village styles to very specific curruculums (Wong Fei Hung's and Lam Sai Wing's being the ones I am talking about, if the context helps).

    You're definitely wrong there, the complex history and ties to Fujian are beyond denial. If you want to launch into a real discussion of Fujian archaeology (and not what you've read online, brother), we'll need a bigger thread. But most of what you said is correct, while still being wrong by your opening statement. You're taking a very black/white stance on what is a far more complicated subject. Please don't start arguing about the red herring 'mythical temple', Ben. The Shaolin way is baked into all of South China, literally, and in a sense, so is Hung gar, but to take that massive history and try to distill it down into "this came from Qinghai, not Fujian" is myopic.

    Man, give me a break :D I've filled a whole thread with evidence that Tibetan White Crane is not the only "Crane" content in Hung gar. Hung gar is loaded with Fujian Snake and Crane content, content from Fujian, from Henon, from Canton, from the Lion's Roar from Qinghai. And let's not forget Wing Chun. Let us discuss exact techniques in these systems with Ben, not just youtube videos of forms and what the Wiki history or average eye might see. I want to have a serious discussion, not a discussion of what's in Wikipedia or what one sifu said to a student.

    Hmm no let's correct the record that's not my proposition, I'm actually explaining to you the Hung gar history of "Crane" influences from numerous locations in China (and beyond) not just my own experience (record: I was taught of the Fujianese origins of Hung gar) but on top of that a lot of pictures, video, interviews with Sifus, hanzi script...you're still trying to use a lot of logic, which on the Net is quite frankly a waste of time in a kung fu forum, assuming two people who can discuss the subject IN DETAIL on level.

    This isn't debate class, at least I didn't think. It was a discussion of two relatively advanced students of Southern Boxing?

    No he's not. Lam Sai Wings diagrams (and the hanzi for them) are identical to many Fujian Crane poses and techniques. On the Dang Fong lineage, there are additional names and elements ascribed to various techniques in Hung gar, NOT labeled as such or otherwise obvious in either Lam Sai Wing's books or any of his schools' teachings.

    Please, post a picture from Wong Yan Lam's s or fist set from Lama pai with the same posture AND hanzi for anything in both Hung gar and Fujian Crane, which is what I have been doing. No links to Wiki logic definitions, thanks, I'm not interested is that. Thanks!

    Well that's not true, Lam Sai Wing is not 'Canonical' Hung gar history. And of course yes both Fei hung and Sai Wing made trips to Fujian, it's the ancestral homeland of their martial arts, in addition to territory Wong Fei Hung became very well familiar with during military service (which set the stage for later martial studies). This is why a simple survey of Fujianese styles (name one) will permit you to find corresponding content in many schools of Hung gar. You are witnessing the preservation of systems, techniques, names, Animal/Element/Wu Xing categorizations. There is a lot of complexity under the surface of this art...

    So for A and B) let's try this: post me some lists of the White Crane technique sets you personally associate with Fujian. Please include both english and hanzi if possible, it will make my life easier while translating (have access to a lot of Hung gar hanzi..)

    Even if C) is true, in many cases they are. Again I was not arguing that they are always identical, I am noting common DNA between them, as specifically as is possible. I started with Crane of course, but that's become a relatively limited animal (kung fu pun intended :D)

    Now that's quite a claim. What evidence can you provide of THAT? (please no rhetoric...I've watched enough news today brother :) )
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2016
  16. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    You need to stop with the smug, snide insinuating Wikipedia angle right now. Not only is it offensive it's ridiculous when you obviously have little first hand knowledge of Fujianese or Tibetan martial arts.
    You are using your proposition to support your argument now. That's fallacious.
    So Wong Fei Hung studied Hung Gar then, not Fujian crane. So disingenuous and again using your proposition to support your argument.
    You do realise that two of the ten tigers studied lion's roar under Sing Lung yeah? Two who we know taught material to Wong Kei Yin and his son.
    Hung Gar is only a Fujianese art IF your proposition is true, however even if it were it's DNA is dominated by Guangdong at this point. Even with village Hung Gar systems which you assert is Hung Gar there is strong regional influence, with systems from Jiangmen and Futsan having distinct regional flavour and if you think Hung Gar from Maoming is obviously the same system as yours I'd love to know how (especially as before China opened up the US Hung community was quite strongly suggesting that the sole US teacher of it was making it all up). Yet Wong Fei Hung's system has maintained a distinct pure Fujianese flavour for 250 years?
    The only thing that you've proved is that techniques are shared between all three systems. Actually video is a much better medium for a discussion that goes beyond what the average eye can see. A photo shows the superficial similarities, a video shows the dynamic differences. Also photos create publication bias, you're dependent on finding photos of those techniques, and people writing articles on Tibetan arts will typically focus on the long punches. Whereas with video there's hours and hours of user generated content and you can see pretty much the entire systems.
    My Fujianese kung fu teachers weren't big on technique names. I don't really see what is to be gained by that anyway. The characters for the same phrases will likely be the same, so what does that tell us? As we have no way to tell where the phrases originate (I mean if they're from some lost Ming dynasty text then they'd likely be widespread) they're a red herring. You yourself have shown that names can be shared widely in TCMA and the names in the script you shared correspond to wildly different techniques in the video.
    Hung Gar is not common in China outside of Guangdong, and before the turn of this century most Chinese people tended not to travel much. Therefore most Baihe masters will have little first hand exposure to Hung Gar.
     
  17. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    As for Wing Chun I've also studied that and it has very little in common with Fujianese styles, indeed has more in common with other styles from Fujian. I'd say it's most likely a fusion of a bit of Fujianese kung fu with a lot of Futsan Cantonese and Hakka.
     
  18. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    This was kind of my point, so far we have had some photos and a list of techniques, nothing of written proof that anyone actually trained and brought these arts into hung gar, or when and how they influenced hung gar, no dates no named teachers, no written proof.

    As Ben says its historically proven that two of the ten tigers were students of Sing Lung and there impact is well known.

    For someone who always says he does the research and doesn't rely on just
    wikipedia its not good enough im surprised iron Fist cant produce more factual information, not names of techniques which are commonly seen between different styles, or photos, but actual names of people that WFH trained with from the crane schools and influenced him, and when this actually happened.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  19. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    "clearly have little first hand knowledge", ..."Obviously" is so clearly smug and snide on its face, is it not? I really don't want to get into this "I know more about the arts than you do". I was worried that when and if I started discussing Hung gar's material in detail, I'd get this sort of response. I know every technique in Wong Fei Hung's Tiger Crane, maybe you do to, but this was never about who knows more, but building a case. I think I've built a pretty strong one (and you can't deny the White Crane sifus seem to agree). You mentioned "Sifus don't always know what they're talking about" and that may be true, but I don't think so in this case (since there is so much other evidence on top of "Sifu Says" :D

    I've not said intended anything snide or smug in this entire thread, really. I've never suggested you only got your info on the Wiki, that's for sure. I've been trying to speak to you as someone who saw a separate facet of Hung gar Tiger Crane than maybe I have, everyone's experiences are different.

    I'm simply stating what I've been taught, what I've read, what I've seen with my eyes and has been supported independently (when a White Crane sifu says (paraphrasing) "yes Nan Chuan and White Crane are related through Fujian Shaolin practices"), what is there not to believe? If your position is "if it's Fujian Shaolin, it's fiction", you are using the fact there fiction exists to try to disprove any connection whatsoever (in the face of all this evidence of similarity right up to and including written hanzi). I know a lot of people say "FAKE" when they hear Fujian Shaolin, but it's not that simple. There is clearly a historical connection.

    This is the problem, you continue to claim Hung Gar and Fujian Crane are mutually exclusive arts, when the evidence clearly shows a long overlapping family tree and multiple interfaces over centuries where content was shared, compared, and explored. You say it yourself below all three arts share the same content. It's truly impossible to know who added what first, but here we are today, there is a proven history of lineage between then all, and especially after Wong Fei Hung formalized his curriculum. The argument again is that this material was always present in the vast archives of Hung gar, and Wong Fei Hung was an authority. He clearly taught the Fujianese influences on Hung gar (it's right in his technique names for things, and in the Five Animal/Element framework). The influence of Fujian animal styles on Hung gar both before and after Wong Fei Hung is incontrovertible.

    "distinct pure Fujianese flavor"? these are your words not mine, but it's a straw man fallacy, if you want to debate...these arts were blended over many generations, nothing is "distinct, pure, Fujianese". That's the flaw in your entire line of reasoning, in my humble opinion.

    Thanks Ben, for finally admitting it. I was hoping we could at least agree on these arts have "interacted" on so many levels over so many generations, what we'd eventually see in 2016 is what we have in front of us...a LOT of similarity, even if the 'canonical' histories generally point in only one direction for an origin (e.g. Songshan Shaolin zi), it's truly a multidimensional, multi-faceted fabric.

    I think you mean Hung gar was not common outside of Guangdong at the turn of the 20th century (not the 21st, right?)... but it was still known by generic names like Southern Fist in general. SO when Wong Fei Hung traveled to Fujian in the military, the arts he had learned were not foreign to Fujian, in fact, there would have been a myriad of similarities (most notably, the parts of Hung gar that are Shaolin-influenced...the whole 'Fujian Shaolin' influence across many arts in both provinces).

    So, it's been frustrating but we've established that the people who did travel (the founder of Lion's Roar, Wong Fei Hung, Lam Sai Wing, Shaolin monks in general) and brought martial material with them (or returned somewhere with it) are how the blending over time occurs. This is why "North to South" is really a misnomer. Culture rarely shifts in such a unidirectional pattern, it just helps people simplify their conceptions (kind of like boxing...this also never traveled in any particular cardinal direction). With respect to martial arts I think the "directions" we first learn such as North to South are incredibly simplistic models that don't truly illustrate the human connections, and overall family tree.

    Today (21st century) Hung gar is known through the world and especially China...they watch Wong Fei Hung's hundred movies in the northernmost of China as well as the South (notwithstanding the discussion we once had about schools of Hung gar being much more common in the south...today we can find Hung gar schools in Russia).

    So yes, if you're saying the Fujianese elements are SO baked into Hung gar that they're practically un-discernible from other influences like Lama, I will agree with that.

    But, having seen and been shown both Hung Gar animal styles, Fujianese animal styles, and knowing that there is 'more than one explanation' for almost everything in Chinese martial arts, I think you've already agreed with my original statement in the thread, which was that Mr. Miyagi is performing Fujian Crane Stands on One Leg in "Karate Kid", and that same technique is in Hung gar Crane, and it's not from Northwest China.

    Can we at least agree on that, that Mr. Miyagi is not performing a Lion's Roar technique, but a Fujian Crane technique that also appears, in exact format and hanzi, in Hung gar Crane I'm trying to respect your positions and still find a middle ground. Anybody who starts challenging my own training is just going to go on Ignore, I'm not here on MAP to play those sorts of games (nor would I expect you want to either).
     
  20. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    That's a relatively impossible task, Ice, which is why I'm doing my best to pull together whatever material is out there (with the understanding that the connection between Fujianese animal styles and Hung gar animal styles is relatively well accepted). Actual names are going to be limited quite frankly to scraps of the history, but obviously the total history is FAR richer and far less documented than "X learned from Y". I'll keep to the fact that it's often just easier and more obvious to compare techniques and names, rather than genealogies (especially when you go far back enough, the 'people' might have had different names or been composites, etc).

    Here's an example of what I mean: Was Dang Fong a peer or student of Lam Sai Wing? This question will cause chaos depending on how you answer and whose school you are talking to. The true answer is both (Dang Fong was at first Lam Sai Wing's student, but went on to study under Wong Fei Hung directly, became a peer to Lam Sai Wing and in fact the chief parallel lineage to the Lam Family, and this is how he determined the differences between Sai Wing's personal methods and Fei Hung's core teachings. (EDIT: fixed this...made a brain fart earlier, sorry for any confusion...)

    Knowing why and knowing how requires a significant amount of research, including into the lineages. Hung gar lineages don't flow top-down, they flow bottom-up, vertically....there is a lot of cross-pollination. So how can anyone suggest there is a single source for an entire Animal classification? Hung gar Tiger...Shaolin Tiger, Black Tiger, Fujian Tiger Crane? Do you see what I trying to point out? If we were talking about cooking styles, you'd never claim that Cantonese cooking was 'purely 'Cantonese'...you'll find the same food in Fujian. Likewise in 2016 you will find Fujianese martial arts in "Cantonese" Hung gar, which like I said, is not really a Cantonese creation. It draws on sources from all four corners of China.

    So like I said, let's keep things simple, I posted a lot of material that aligns Hung gar with specific Fujian Crane elements (the more obvious ones, but there are many others). Let's get some specific Lama stances/forms/techniques out here in the thread and compare the Lama, the Fujianese Crane, and the various formats found in Hung gar (which are diverse and cover all the bases I think we're talking about...IRREGARDLESS of a fact like "Wong Fei Hung Learned Lion's Roar from ...". Such a statement while technically true don't really tell the whole story (the whole story is in the curriculum, the actual fist sets, lists of techniques, names for things (and for some Hung gar techniques, there could be 4-5 different names over time...Lam Sai Wing changed all sorts of technique names to make the overall system more accessible, whereas Dang Fong kept things closer to Wong Fei Hung's full school system...Lam Sai Wing simplified some things).
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016

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