Which other MAs practice Ibuki (tense breathing)?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Old_kyokushin, May 11, 2011.

  1. Osu,


    Kyokushin & GojuRyu practice Ibuki quite a bit; I am wondering is other MAs are also practicing ibuki, and what benefits do derive from the practice in your training? :)



    Osu!
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2011
  2. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Some might see this as a bit of taking things to their logical extreme, but there is a bit of Ibuki practiced in shotokan. We don't do it like Goju guys, but it is there.

    In Hangetsu for example, you're really supposed to be doing everything using ibuki (although not everyone does it properly, obviously). I'd also argue that any move done slowly in a kata could arguably be done with ibuki. I'm thinking mostly of anything that can easily engage the lats (e.g. the bits in Ji'in/Jion/Heian Yondan where you pull your hands down and apart, before the kicks)
     
  3. Princess Haru

    Princess Haru Valued Member

    Wouldn't some movements apply more than others? I am thinking of Sochin and Unsu, though it's a long time since I practiced either kata
     
  4. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Well that's why I said Hangetsu. It's also what I was getting at with being able to do it with slow moves. Gives them more of a purpose.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTMRUjVGI-M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTMRUjVGI-M[/ame]
     
  5. Princess Haru

    Princess Haru Valued Member

    ah, sorry I'd forgotten about Hangetsu, 13-14 years since I trained, just reminding myself of the technical differences

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52cfzR0S6rU&"]YouTube - Hangetsu - Shotokan Karate[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjD5ZqUEeJo&"]YouTube - Sochin - Shotokan Karate[/ame]
     
  6. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Uechi Ryu I know for sure. Otherwise I don't know too many others. Good question Fred.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7YDkZrJ-V0"]YouTube - Sanchin Uechi-ryu[/ame]
     
  7. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    From what I can tell, IBUKI Breathing is very much going the way of MAKWARI training. What I mean is that people still hold it in some regard and its still practiced but not the way that it was, say, two or three decades ago.

    The people that I know who still use "tense" breathing simply add a bit of tension to their diaphram/abdomen while doing normal breathing and that is that. There have been a few contributing factors to this.

    One factor is that honest-to-Gawd IBUKI Breathing is not as easy to teach and learn as one might think. The tightening of particular muscles and in particular order is cause for no-end of bickering back and forth about who is doing it "right". While all of this is going on the poor student is trying to get the low-down while making mistakes.

    Another factor is the impact on the Cardio-pulmonary as a matter of debate as well as the production of similar results in other ways.

    Yet another factor is the supposed relationship between this sort of practice and its influence on the various meridians of the body as postulated in TCM. Whether a person actually believes in "CHI", its circulation through the body and its relationship to well-being is really not the point. Rather, there is the matter of whether one wants to participate in a practice that might have an influence on one's own well-being without the guidance of someone who is well-trained in such prospects.

    IMVVHO, I believe the addition of strenuous practice risks more harm than it promises good. When I study-up on QI GONG and TAI CHI as well as other practices such as YOGA I repeatedly find the injunction that if one is straining or tense they are doing something wrong. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  8. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Fred - I'd be interested to know what benefits you find in ibuki breathing? I've never tried it as it's not really practiced in shotokan. Even in hangetsu (which is pretty much our version of sanchin) the breathing is generally slow and deliberate rather than laboured.

    Just wondered what benefits you find it brings to the karate practitioner?
     
  9. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    actually as far as i know, uechi guys don't do ibuki, but rather have their own kind of breathing that follows a broken rhythm and is designed to hide inhalations so as not to be vulnerable because of them, as opposed to ibuki which serves as a training method for the hara.

    as far as teaching ibuki, i'd say it's hard to teach properly if you have to teach it to a big group, but i've explained it to people before in a few minutes, and even taught it along with sanchin once or twice (to a standard i'd consider good for a single lesson) in around half an hour or so.
     
  10. Osu Bruce,

    Thank you for your input...
    I have very recently started TaiJiQuan and although I find many many relationships and convergence with my karate, I am always finding myself being very tense; in the hips, legs, back, abdomen, shoulders, etc... not stiff, tense. I am being told and shown over & over again to relax and maintain all body parts in a fully relaxed state.
    My first impression, is that it has to do with moving through the path of least resistance, least energy expenditure. It also has to do with using the proper body mechanics - improper stances and postures can be hidden by tension.
    But, maybe it has something to do with Qi, I don't know, or meridians, or health, I also don't know.

    osu!

    Osu,


    Thank you for asking Moosey.

    I find great core strength benefits in a regular practice of ibuki; it enhances my ability to take body/leg shots. (I believe that the intense isometrics that come with ibuki practiced in Sanchin Dachi are the reason); I believe it helps me recover faster from a shot that went through too.
    It helps in keeping me more centered and balanced in kumite and kata.

    Some say that ibuki increases the immediate O2 intake by increasing the partial pressure of O2 in the lungs, but I have not been able to notice that.

    I have not noticed adverse effects on my training or my health.

    I noticed that a powerful ibuki is intimidating and a statement of power, I don't know if that ever was the intent, but I find that primal & cool... ;)


    If Bruce is to be believed, I must be a disappearing specie: I also practice makiwara and some traditional hand/forearm hardening exercises; some from GojuRyu, some from Chinese arts. ;)


    Osu!



    PS: Thank you all for posting these videos; I only regret I can't see them from behind The Great Fire Wall :(

    PS2: Any similar practice to ibuki in other arts - Chinese arts, kung fu, wing chun, other Asian arts, etc... or western arts?
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2011
  11. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Actually disguising the inhalation and emphasizing the exhalation is ibuki. When I was first taught Sanchin in Goju Ryu it was very similar to Higaonna's Sanchin here except we followed our first exhalation with a second, forced exhalation to further empty the lungs and tighten the diaphragm.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kybxNOlnl20"]YouTube - 3.SANCHIN KATA by MORIO HIGAONNA[/ame]

    The Uechi Ryu version is a quicker exhalation as according to one of the books I have devoted to it it's because the tongue is on the roof of the mouth during the kata, almost like nogare breathing but still maintaining the dynamic tension of ibuki.
     
  12. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    I've noticed benefits very similar to Fred. Sanchin kata is a very important kata in my opinion, one of the main kata you should practice every day.

    Some of the old physical culture books I have emphasize deep breathing exercises and dynamic tension exercises, but not combined like in ibuki. There is that book "Dynamic Strength" by Harry Wong that's been out a long time that is devoted to dynamic tension exercises, though I don't see any mention of what his background is and if it has any foundation in his training.

    [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Dynamic-Strength-Harry-Wong/dp/0865680132"]Amazon.com: Dynamic Strength (9780865680135): Harry Wong: Books[/ame]


    On a somewhat related note, not sure if you ever got to see this video Fred but it's the comparison of Sanchin through different systems and developments:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s"]YouTube - comparitive karate san chiem ( sanchin ) San zhan[/ame]
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2011
  13. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    As far as a reasoning behind practicing IBUKI Breathing, I think we may need to go back to the development of "Iron Shirt" and "Golden Bell" practices. There seems to have been a point at which the "more is better" philosophy may have sent the MA community down the wrong road. See if this makes sense.

    We know that when it comes to Cold weapons, size makes a difference. We can also add conditioning, skill-sets and experience. With the advent of the Hot weapons, one could field an entire army with relatively little conditioning, training or experience. However, if one were holders of Cold weapons, facing Hot Weapons, as in the case of the CHING Dyn during the Opium Wars, or the Boxers during the Rebellion of 1900, there may have been the sorts of collusion between arcane and mystical practices and pragmatic weapons work as reported in various books on the subjects of the time. You may recall that various Daoist practices and rituals were interfaced with weapons work to cause fighters to believe that they were impervious to the enemy's bullets and artillery, for instance.

    My point, then, is that maybe Breath Training started out as a more relaxed practice. The logic would follow that if a little effort added a little good to Breath-work, adding a LOT more effort would produce a LOT more good. Of course, at some point such thinking violates the idea of "moderation in all things" and you get diminishing returns, yes? So I would say that more natural breathing would have a productive result but there is a point where too much stressing and straining may cause more problems than it solves.
    IMHO.

    BTW: I have never seen any material on it, but I think it would be interesting to investigate whether IBUKI Breathing addresses any issues regarding "core muscle strength" that we may not be aware of. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2011
  14. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    actually i've been told once or twice to keep the tongue on the roof of my mouth when doing goju-like ibuki :p. probably down to stylistic/lineage differences.

    re: uechi: it's somewhat explained here (clip from shinyu gushi's dvd, afaik): [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESYN8thbFUQ"]YouTube - Shinyu Gushi performs Sanchin[/ame]
     
  15. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Just out of interest, does making a quacking noise add anything to ibuki breathing? Lots of people do it, but as far as I can tell, it's just disturbing the flow of air with the throat, vocal folds or mouth and doesn't recruit any extra muscles over doing it silently.
     
  16. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

  17. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    the key for ibuki breathing is being able to increase the pressure on your abdomen. tightening your abdomen then also compresses your lungs, and aids the diaphragm in generating exhalation. the throat is then used as a regulator to prevent that pressure from being released too fast (which is also why the sphincter is tightened. if you have pressure on your intestines, you can release it up or down along the digestive tract, and you most definitely don't want to release it downwards :p ), with the breathing itself being purely abdominal in nature, and the noise being incidental. quacking noises demonstrate "throat breathing", which is incorrect, but common, as not many people are trained to breathe using their abdomen in modern karate dojos, from what i've seen.
     
  18. TRK

    TRK Valued Member

    The way I've been taught is that the noise shouldn't come from a constriction in the throat, but from constricting the flow of your breath with your abdominal muscles.
     
  19. TRK

    TRK Valued Member

    I find this kind of comparison between styles fascinating. I've learned Sanchin in the Goju style, but with the turns like in the Uechi-Ryu video (though the footwork on the turns is different). My understanding is that this is an older version, which Chojun Miyagi altered later in his teaching. The more stationary version (just an advance, then stationary) shown in the Hiagonna video is more standard today.
     
  20. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    from what i've heard, i think the version without the turns was made because higashionna was old and didn't move as much as when he taught the first version, so he made the students train the form always facing the same way so he could observe them without having to walk around so much. got no sources though, maybe some of the resident goju-ka can shed light on the matter?
     

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