there is a styel renshinkan witch uses the basics of Kyokushin but it also has a mixture of brazilan jujitsu boxing and kick boxing
It would have been a 'sucky ass' mma school if id have gone there and battered everyone as everyone battered me, i think its a pretty good school I am not having a go at traditional karate at all. As a stand up fighting art it has served me very well. I know people in traditional karate who should be certified lethal weapons. I only changed to thai boxing as I want to compete, and the training is more ring focused. The problem is I have never found a shoot in goju ryu karate, the take downs tend to be lifts and trips. Therefore, I have never been taught to sprawl in goju ryu karate. There may be a double leg takedown hidden in some kata somewhere, if so, whoever hidden it done a good job. When i was sparring at my 'sucky ass' MMA school i could hold my own on my feet, so natrually as soon as everyone worked that out i was nailed again and again by a multitude of different take downs. I have learned more about take down defence in two weeks of MMA, than in nine years of karate Again, i am not trying to put down karate. It was just eye opening be taken to the floor so easily after years of sparring, and my advice to anyone who doesnt know how to defend take downs and grapple is go and learn today.
The problem with a karateka who has never done any full contact sparring is they try to block everything. It took me ages to get out of trying to block everything to save losing a point. If you try blocking a mawashi geri with a outer block, chances are you will have your arm broken. I think kyokushinkai is by far the best style along with saido.
agree with this totally. in light continuous sparring you can block anything and everything. When you spar full contact you can smash through most of these blocks, so a tighter, more boxing style defence is required, along with a lot of evasion. A good karateka of any style will hold their own in mma on their feet provided they stay away from the light continuous tactics and learn how to exchange and defend full power strikes
So anyway.... arguments aside, does anyone know of any karateka that have been successful in an mixed competitions? Or any up and comers? I once met a guy from Kyokushin named Judd Reid. He's quite well known in Aus (only aussie to complete uchi deshi program with Mas Oyama). I suppose a lot of styles have guys like this - just a freekin machine to watch. I know he has talked a lot about competing in as many varied comps as possible - I believe he's fought as a kickboxer and ametuer boxer (correct me if I'm wrong). He might be getting a bit old now though, I guess.
If this was true, MMA lessons would just be weightlifting. They're not. Weightlifting is a compliment to MMA training, not a replacement. It's just the harsh truth - when two people are really hitting each other hard, strength does matter. You can't afford to hide from this when you're training people to win in the cage/ring. MMA lessons are as technical as anything else. You're stepping into dangerous territory here by assuming that the people you fight won't be any good at fighting. If so, why bother training? I don't agree with this because karate point sparring is a world away from real combat, whereas two strong, well conditioned and skilled MMA fighters trying to knock each other out or submit each other isn't. The fact that an MMA fighter wouldn't do well in a point sparring competition is meaningless. I hear what you say, but there's a big difference between all the previous crazes and the current MMA "fad" (IMO MMA isn't popular enough to be considered a fad, but there we go). The previous crazes were based on fictional TV programmes and films that made everyone go "oooooooooooh!". MMA, on the other hand, established itself through actual evidence of people fighting each other. I agree that kyokushin or one of its offshoots would translate the best to an MMA environment for the reasons already put forward.
That was partly the point I was trying to make. When you're training for cage fighting you have to be huge to have the slightest chance. Fewer karate practitioners are body-builders so whether karate as a style has what it takes to compete is less of a factor. I guess what I'm trying to say is "artist not the art". C'mon Tim, are you really arguing that muggers and random drunks tend to be big, disciplined, martial arts fighters? Would police records back you up on this point? That arrests for public affray tend to involve martial arts?
Hmm, I would doubt they have the discipline for MA but someof them may well be pretty nasty pieces of work anyway, particularly the ones that go out and actively pick fights.
Yeah, absolutely. But that's what your average martial art prepares you for. Not for enormous MA-practicing powerhouses.
muggers will tend to be very good at mugging people, due to lots of previous mugging practice people that get drunk and start fights will tend to be people that get drunk and start fights a lot, hence forth be practiced street fighters in order for you to be selected for being a victim of these crimes, your average cowardly street scum bag will have to have the odds in his favour, ie group of mates, weapon, be bigger than you so no, the average person on the street may not be a trained fighter, but will always need reason tothink the odds are stacked in their favour therefore, they often will be stacked in their favour, and you need sufficient training to fight against the odds but then, what if on the off chance you are attacked by a mugger/drunk who is a trained fighter it may only happen once, but they may kill you i suppose their is more chance of them having a gun than being a very good martial artist but then we cant train against bullets, so its not worth worrying about
The point I was trying to make was that, while MMA fighters (like people in any contact sport) do recognise the advantage of strength, this does not mean that MMA is lacking in technicality at all. Strength is important but far from the only factor: look at Andrei Arlovsky v Tim Sylvia (Sylvia is about 7 feet tall but got absolutely clobbered), Bob Sapp v Crocop (same again), or Tank Abbot's fights with Vitor Belfort (knocked out in a flurry of punches), Frank Mir (armbar submission in the first round) and Hidehiko Yoshida (choke in the first round). You don't need to do martial arts to be good at fighting. Plenty of people are hard simply because they've had a lot of fights, or are strong. If you want evidence, look at Tank Abbot, it was only when the really good MMA fighters came along that he started getting beaten. Before that, his strength combined with his bar brawling experience made him hard as nails. You shouldn't underestimate people just because they haven't done martial arts training. Quite a few karateka (from full contact styles) have competed in, and done well in, K-1. As for actual MMA, Ryo Chonan in the UFC's lightweight division (I think) has karate as his striking base. I don't think there's as much difference between training for the street and training for MMA as you say there is for three reasons. 1) How is taking someone down and pounding/submitting them slower than beating them while standing up? 2) MMA is not a pure grappling style. It involves standup striking as well. Whether you prefer the standup, clinch or ground aspect depends on your previous training. It is a wide misconception that MMA is all about groundfighting and it really isn't - again, in MMA we just recognise that it's an important skill, whereas many other MAs don't. 3) I can't think of one weakness in MMA that doesn't matter on the street. If you gas quickly in the ring, crippling your ability to fight effectively, it will happen on the street too. If you get taken down and obliterated in the cage, it won't be any easier for you on the street when when his mates are jumping in and there's no ref to save you. If you flap around like a fish the first time you get punched in the face hard, it's going to happen on the street as well. Maybe you can handle these things, I'm not saying you can't, but if you train for these things then your training goals really aren't that different.
What is quite interesting is that more and more karateka are looking at MMA to develop karates weaknesses. For instance more and more karateka are recognising clinch work. Rather than throw everything out the whole system some instructors are modifying karate based on MMA tactics. Basically this is good for karate as it has become more up to date and hence more effective. Of course some of the traditional Japanese dominated schools are lagging behind. Unfortunatly they are in the majority - once word of mouth spreads we will see a shift though.
So does Ryoto Machida, who has beaten BJ Penn, Rich Franklin (UFC Champ), Michael McDonald, Stephen Bonnar....I think he's the only one to be that successfull with Karate in MMA though. And Ryo Chonan is in Pride not UFC.
Sorry but if you gas in a street fight then you were sticking around longer then you needed too. Also taking a guy to ground in a street fight is not anywhere near as safe or clever as it is in MMA comps. The pavement isn't as comfy as a mat and in the ring your opponent doesn't have a group of mates ready to run in and stomp your head. Don't get me wrong though, I think MMA techniques and training are VERY effective for real fights, just not all of them apply with equal value as they do in a comp.
Better then nothing I suppose. It would depend on the comp you are talking about. K-1 it would hold it's own well, if they were trained for full contact fighting. UFC I don't see it doing well without cross-training a decent ground game or ground avoidance game.
In karate schools i have trained in in the past, we did grapple from our knees were just were not shown how to do it properly que lots of head squeezing stalemate and not much action and the bigger guy always won has anyone here been taught how to grapple effectively in their karate class and if so, were the techniques inate to their style of karate, or taken from other systems
we do a lot of grappling (every class) in our karate club - and a lot of takedowns, throws, takedown avoidance, locks, chokes etc... it is all in there - most people seem to have forgotten or never been taught it though - it comes from karate coms not including it, so many styles simply dropped it - but more traditional styles include the lot - in fact you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between our friday night classes and an MMA class/fight, if it wasn't for the gi's... but it is most certainly all karate
