Which Judo throws are the most effective in no-gi situations?

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Elbow, Oct 16, 2015.

  1. Elbow

    Elbow Valued Member

    I'm a relatively new starter at Judo and several other martial arts and I was wondering which throws would be the most effective outside of a Judo competition? As an example, in an MMA fight with no gi, or in the street.

    Any assistance from experienced Judoka would be much appreciated, and if you could list the reasons why the throws are so effective outside of a Judo competition that would be great.
     
  2. Elbow

    Elbow Valued Member

    Ippon seoi nage should work well from what I've seen, it'll just mean grabbing the wrist rather than the gi sleeve.
     
  3. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    You can do shoulder throws no-gi, but you need to be amazing at them, because if they go wrong, you've given up your back.

    Koshi guruma is a great no gi throw, because you headlock your opponent and wheel them over your hip. In MMA, when they talk about Judo throws, they are normally talking about a koshi guruma, or a harai goshi from a koshi guruma type clinch. You risk getting your back taken, but if you nail it, you land in kesa gatame.

    Osoto-gari/Ouchi gari - big reaps work without gis quite well and can be executed from a head and arm clinch.

    Morote gari - banned in IJF competitions, but a double leg takedown is pretty much bread and butter in no-gi environments.

    Sasae tsuri komi ashi (or its cousin Hiza guruma) - you can do this from a head and arm clinch. Hector Lombard took down Jake shields with this throw (as well as many other throws) in their UFC fight.

    If you're a sacrifice throw guy, then sumi gaeshi works well and if you botch it, you normally just pull guard.

    Those are the main ones that spring to mind.
     
  4. Elbow

    Elbow Valued Member

    Thanks very much, that's exactly the reply I was looking for. Due to the fact that I'm doing a few MAs at the same time I'd prefer to pick half a dozen throws to try and perfect, rather than spending the same amount of time on each technique.

    There's a few there that I haven't heard of yet so I'll be youtubing them. Cheers again.
     
  5. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Tai otoshi works with an underhook grip, as does Harai goshi o goshi and uki goshi, and O guruma hari goshi also works well of a overhook

    Its really the grips and distance that change, underhook and wrist control are good, as are underhook and elbow control (which distance wise is more realistic, since you are closer sometimes backstepping and pulling is easier than forward step/turning

    As holy said all the reaps work really well and can help set up the head throws he mentioned, my favourite is Ouchi gari off a coller grip with wrist control, if they step out of it Koshi guruma or Kubi Nage them
     
  6. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    There was a good couple of vids on YouTube a few years ago from karo parisen showing some judo to MMA crossover techniques. I'll post it up when I get in the house.
     
  7. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    What's the difference between sumi gaeshi and tomoe nage?
     
  8. Elbow

    Elbow Valued Member

    Sounds brilliant. Cheers.
     
  9. Elbow

    Elbow Valued Member


    Thanks, a couple more to look up.
     
  10. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBnWgT2en1U"]MMA Best Judo Throws - YouTube[/ame]

    Good video. Quite a bit of that is wrestling tbf.
     
  11. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Makikomi throws, uchimata and koshi guruma work best for me.
    Of course trips, ankle picks, tani otoshi, tai otoshi, and other takedowns that aren't really throws per se make up the bulk of it. And double-leg counters, of course.

    Tai otoshi performed as a forward tripping throw hits like a truck from an overbook. I also get some success with it from an elbow and half-plum grip. (high collar without the gi)

    Seoi nage works much better with an elbow grip than a wrist grip. Moving to the wrist makes it much harder to draw that arm out of your opponent's workspace (and unbalance with it) while entering deeply. It becomes kind of an either-or. The wrist grip works okay for drop seoi but then that's working on a different mechanic anyway.

    It really depends on what context you're rolling in. If your opponents are willing to try and throw you back, hip throws and pickups are great. If they want to separate and strike, trips and double legs rule the day. If they just want to skip to groundwork by pulling guard, maybe guard passing and leglocks will serve you better.
     
  12. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    A couple things, which are more or less obvious depending on where you execute the throw from.

    The core differences are:

    In tomoenage, you plant your foot in the crease of their hip and kick them over the top, where in sumigaeshi its the weight of your body dropping that executes the throw - you will normally try to hook your foot under their hamstring to help rotate them over, but its not always necessary.

    In sumi gaeshi you are throwing diagonally over the top, whereas in tomoenage, you are throwing them straight.

    Tomoenage can be executed from distance, but sumi gaeshi requires you to be close. You can jump into a tomoenage, but it doesn't work so good for a sumi gaeshi (but there are a lot of sumi gaeshi variations).

    Sumi gaeshi works better (IMO) than tomoenage in no-gi because the kind of clinches you find yourself in no gi are much closer to the type of positions you would throw sumi gaeshi for when you are wearing a gi.
     
  13. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    All the ones they do in wrestling because wrestling > everything else
     
  14. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Half a dozen is quite a lot of throws to perfect. Start with, oh, one. I'm not saying don't practice others, but as a beginner focus on one or two you really like.

    Osoto gari is sweet, and Osoto guruma is vicious, especially so if used on the street. Osoto otoshi is much less risky since you don't have to risk lifting your foot and losing your balance. Judo and other jacket grappling arts are awesome as an addition to self defence since people often wear jackets day to day, especially up here in Canada. However, tying up with sometime isn't always a good idea. I do some modern SD stuff, and I've been working on baking both Judo and Kampfringen into it when working out sequences. This is because under pressure, I'm likely to fall back on them to some degree due to time put in. I train standing grappling 2-3 nights a week and modern combatives only one night a week.
     
  15. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Agree! It should be the 1st throw to be learned for everybody.

    By using "切 (Qie) - front cut", you will have the following advantages:

    - You don't need to turn your back into your opponent.
    - You let your leg to do your leg job and let your hands to do your hands job.
    - You don't need to grab on your opponent's Gi.

    The following clip is not Judo but you will get the idea.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb18F02sHrI&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb18F02sHrI&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

    The nice thing about this throw is if your opponent's resistance is too strong, you can change your throwing direction, use your leg to kick back, and
    throw him forward by "别(Bie) - back kick" instead. It's one throw that you can change from A to B, or from B to A nicely.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g4bQdAFL3A&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g4bQdAFL3A&feature=youtu.be[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2015
  16. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Or in Judo speak - Osoto gari -> Harai Goshi. It's a very cool combination that works perfectly in no-gi
     
  17. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Can't find the exact two I was thinking of but if you type Karo Parisyan judo for MMA into YouTube/Google you'll get a ton of good stuff.

    Here's a good bit of seminar/training footage.
    https://youtu.be/cH89qHE68as
     
  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Old school leg pick ups work great nogi / mma, but many place wont teach it.

    If your training at a judo school, just learn everything, and only start to seperate things for MMA, Nogi, SD etc once you get your brown or black belt.

    ps Dave Camarilo's DVD set is excellent -

    http://www.amazon.com/Position-Impossible-Guerrilla-Jiu-Jitsu/dp/B000FQJAWI
     
  19. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Also watch this -

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NsHtXReVUY"]BJJ Scout: Ronda Rousey Takedown Study - Judo in MMA (Redux) - YouTube[/ame]
     
  20. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    It doesn't matter whether it's wrestling or Judo. The "arm drag knee seize" is a must learn no-gi technique.

    You have

    - one hand below your opponent's knee (to lift up),
    - another hand behind his neck (to push down).

    It can be "circular".

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXHyc5deCdE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXHyc5deCdE[/ame]

    or "linear".

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSrLZRxAS1Q"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSrLZRxAS1Q[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2015

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