Which is better for effective self defense?

I think biting is a poor tool overall so you won't see me biting anyone anytime soon.

 

I'm going to go bite a pig. Seeya.

 

Grappling need not constitute continued holding of an opponant, nor even going to ground. Numerous grappling sweeps and takedowns can be done at a speed commesurate with strikes. Putting the opponant on their ass very quickly or snapping their joints and bones. Even if a continued hold is applied or one decides to go to ground, there are ways to use your opponant as a shield, thereby neutralising their companion's ability from striking out at you. As for you being able to continue strking regardless of how many people you're fighting, that is rubbish. Without some kind of defensive tactics (eg grappling one target to get in the way of another), you will be overwhelmed if the numbers are large enough.

Hmm... just re-read the part I put in BOLD. No matter how agressive and/or techinically sound you are, the belief of being able to defeat "any amount of opponants" (as you put it), is delusional. This is reality, not a kung fu flick. Heck even modern kung fu flicks have toned down the whole, "one man beating an army" idea perpetuated by the older movies.

Ah, not Kung Fu movies, but the "Hulk" (HULK SMASH!). Now your points and level of delusion are crystal clear to me.

Maybe our definitions are different but to me sensation is part of technique. If by sensation you mean the mecahnics by which we have trained our bodies to identify and counter a threat. Soz to the OP since this side discussion is probably :topic:

 

If you have never punched someone bare knuckle as hard as you can, it's a different sensation. If you have never been punched by someone bare knuckle as hard as they could, it's a different sensation. If you've never been sucker punched before being blitzed by two guys, it's a different sensation. If you've never had to face an edged weapon threat before, it's a different sensation.

This is less about technique and more about mental conditioning. The Shock Knife posted in another thread is a good example of this, as it gives you a hell of a jolt almost like you really got stabbed. If you are unfamiliar with it, it's going to give you hell. Same if you're rolling on the ground with a partner and an instructor pops you somewhere on your body with an Airsoft gun if you don't expect it.

It's about adaptability and having trained in a situation that resembles what you ae currently facing so you have some kind of familiarity to fall back on.

 

So by sensation you mean actual physical stimulus?

Just realized the OP hasn't been on for two months and has kickboxing and TKD listed listed as styles he studies. Guess the original question has been answered and he's found what he wanted. Can't be bothered going on about the whole SD vs Sports vs Grappling vs Striking argument... I've done that enough times elsewhere and with people I actually knew and respected. As for the sensation vs technique point, although I find Kuma's explanations to be interesting, my continued questioning of it, is too off topic to continue here. Though I'd be very appreciative if Kuma would like to continue explaining it to me (either via PM or another thread or even in his Social Group). Scratch that, Kuma answered (see his next post). Thanks mate. That cleared it up and again I agree wholeheartedly.

 

Not just physical stimuli (i.e. touch) but a combination of all the senses combined with the psychological and physiological changes your body undergoes. Too many discount the fact that the stress and stimuli you face in a real life encounter is a lot different from the ring in many ways. Some does transfer over though, hence its importance.

 

But when people say BJJ, they're reffering to ground technique. I did a little bit of BJJ when I was younger, so I feel comfortable saying the style is 99% ground and thus 99% useless.

The kind of stand up grappling you're talking about is very useful, found in most striking styles. Muay Thai has some good grappling that can set up for knees to the head or solar plexus or elbows to the head and also many throws - most of these moves being impossible to resist if you yourself have not trained in something similar.

As for fighting multiple opponents, I'd have no problem with it. Assuming we're talking about the "average man" - I know I could not handle several professional fighters. If you know you'd be screwed against more than one guy, I think that says more about yourself than about others, so speak for yourself.

 

This is true. I recommend wearing fingerless, padded knuckle, leather motorbike gloves in your day to day life... I can't punch for damn bare knuckled, it messes up the power distribution or something.

 

i suspect that could be fixed with some conditioning, knickle pushups and bag work with wraps.... kyokushin is VERY good at the bare knuckle aspect. i've been having less and less trouble with the bare knuckled punches every week. =)

 

Still, even when your hands are conditioned, there still is a risk of hurting your hand. This is why during a lot of the early matches of the bare knuckle boxing era, if you didn't score a quick knockout they usually involved long wrestling matches where you were trying to position your opponent for a hammer fist to the back of the head.

 

So you're saying that learning and becoming expert in a variety of submissions, learning to reverse bad positions and learning to get back to your feet are all useless skills?

 

Apparently learning how to fall without injury, to avoid being taken down, and how to move on the ground are all useless too.

 

On that note actually, true story from about 10-11 years ago. My mate knew one of the kids off the local estate who was well known in the area as a street fighter. I'd actually heard of the guy before I ever met him at my friends house, he was pretty nortorious. Anyone who brings a taser to a fist fight is a bit of a nutter, although thats another story!

Anyway, we were drinking at my mates house and at some point, I have no idea how the subject came up, he started showing us moves he'd used on the street. One of his favorate things to do was to spin someone round he was facing off with, or get someone from behind if he could do so undetected such as when they were arguing with someone else, and then RNC them unconsious. He taught us each the choke in turn, years before I ever learnt it at judo class, in some detail.

I've no idea where he got it from, but it kinda shows that submissions can be dangerous, and effective, on the street even if the practitioner isn't a master grappler.

 

It's interesting that a lot of people think BJJ is totally useless for "real" fighting too. We had an incident a few months ago in Pennsylvania where a student at one of the local colleges (who was also a competitive no-gi grappler and supposedly a black belt in BJJ; not sure if the belt is correct but he is pretty skilled) was trying to start a fight at a frat party there. Campus police arrived and he fought against all six of them, choking out almost unconscious and injuring a few others (though not seriously), assaulting all six of them total in some way before he was finally subdued.

 

@ kuma. Yeah i think i read about that a while ago. two points that i'll put out that may come up regards to that.

1. the pols may not have been wanting to hurt the guy.
well last time i heard cops are ready and eager to use necessary force needed to neutralise the perps. they won't take smack from a kid especially if he starts choking one of their own.

2. this ones actually for the cops. these guys may not be the best fighters, may be out of shape and may or may not have experience in an MA, but most of them have REAL LIFE experience, one way or another. the more years they put in the job, the more things they see and experience. so i'd guess atleast 1 of those 6 was capable of defending himself on the streets.

Still i'd say kudos to the kid for his skill. i'd not expect any one from ANY martial art *even BJJ+Muaythai combo* to defend himself against 6 cops. O.O

 

I've been doing Boxing for years now. Punching with gloves on does harden the bones - you're still placing impact and pressure on the bones and thus they develop. I also have a sand bag on a table in my gym, and bash it with an open hand slap in the iron palm fashion every now and then, something I learned from Kung Fu back in the day. So my hands are far from underconditioned.

Still, I won't punch a bag with no protection on - it's just not worth it. The risk of breaking the hand is too high. Frankly, I think those who do punch bags bare knuckle by default must not punch with much power. We know not every punch is going to land perfect - the amount of power I punch with, I'm sure I'd break my hand within a week if I were to train bare knuckled.

I'll punch someones face bare knuckle if I have to, but I actually drive a motorbike, and have no problems wearing the gloves all the time when I'm out because even the minimum protection provided is enough to protect the hands.

These are the gloves I'm talking about:



See how the knuckles are padded. Perfect.

 

I'm saying if you tried to do that to me, even my 40 kilo wife would put you down with a pencil in your neck.

I couldn't give a damn for BJJ or any of you fools who recommend it. Firstly, I'm 105 kilo - what kind of idiot is going to wrestle with a guy my size unless he has 20 kilo on top of that again? Not likely. Secondly, I do actually live in Thailand and am surrounded by pigmy asians - I'm nearly twice the size of any guy around here, so the main threat for me is obviously going to be when they gang up on me, making wrestling usless again because if a gang of Thai get me on the ground, fetal position and police are the only things that will save me. Thirdly, I'm almost never alone - if I don't have my wife or friend with me, I've got a rottweiler. I'd like to see how effective your mount is when you've got a rottweiler chewing on your balls. Fourthly, no one even knows BJJ in this country, so I can't learn it anyway. Fifthly, I carry a bowie knife most the time when I'm out under my pant legs. So on and so forth.

When does BJJ become effective for me? Or the majority of people in this world outside Amercia?

The only place BJJ is effective is A, in the UFC, a one on one match against and equal weight and equal skill opponent. B, in an American college fight where they're trained in gay college wrestling and when a fight occurs your mates are all too spineless to help you out and instead stand in a circle chanting "fight fight fight" whilst some ****** sits on you bloodying up your face.

Stupid style. It was developed by 2 men inside a house on a padded floor who felt the need to wrestle - it is not a product of the necessity to fight in the real world and the skills in it thus reflects that. I'd rather study Wing Chun.

 

You must have had some bad experiences when you were a kid falling over. It really doesn't phase me. I've never had anything aside a grazed knee from falling.

 

Did everyone stand in a circle chanting FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT?

I'll be sure to touch up on my wrestling if I ever intend to visit an American college. Just for you.

 

Keep dreaming dude. Speculation is fun, but it's no substitute for experience and perspective.