Which is better for effective self defense?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Kyrotep, Nov 19, 2010.

  1. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Thanks guys. I appreciate that.
     
  2. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    I agree with you that MMA type training is not for everyone, although the vast majority of practioners can gain alot from it.

    That is really not true. They obviously aren't exactly the same but they aren't completely different either. Hard MMA style sparring prepares you mentally to an extent for any kind of fight, and trains you in the use of addrenaline as well. Obviously other kinds of training, avoidence, situation defusing though capitualtion, intimidation and other methods, the fence, body language etc etc are also useful to give a psychological edge.

    The fact of the matter is most MMA fighters would be good in a real situation not just because of their physical abilities but because of the mental strength their training has given them, and the ability to control their addrenaline levels. The cross dressing fighters who KOed those yobs awhile back are a good example, also Roger Heuta's recent street fight.
     
  3. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Who put wing chun in the tags? Come on own up
     
  4. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    Hi, I agree with what you have said however it misses the point I was trying to make - to clarify what I mean - A beginner, untrained NON UFC person wanting self defence skills will not gain self defence mindset from training in a sport orientated martial art.
     
  5. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Why? They're at least as likely to encounter an opponent trying to enforce their will on them with real intent as a student at another sort of school. Seems to me that's a pretty good preparation in terms of mindset.
     
  6. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    Rubbish, many combat sports athletes have a very good mindset for dealing with a real situation and have never done any non combat sport training. Its very dangeous to post such blanket statements like that, there are few absolutes in the martial arts.

    Personally I've done a bit of both non competive (both good stuff and bad) and competitive arts so I can't really say which part of my training has helped me the most. I would say that theres always an element of competition in every good class though, its only by 'play' fighting that you learn to fight for real. Steve Benitiz the Silat instructor likened it to tiger cubs play fighting, developing the skills they would need ot hunt with later in life.

    Here's a specific example. You develop a good right cross, you land it in sparring and hurt people while wearing 16oz gloves. You gain knowledge of the best distance to throw it at and how to set it up, angles, body mechanics etc etc. Thats not only good for your self defence mindset, its also a definite advantage in a real situation, because a punch is a punch and if you land it for real you'll hurt someone just the same on the street if you're hurting people in the gym.

    This whole issue of rules/no rules just seems to be something people hide behind. It stops you being able to prove anything one way or the other 'I don't grapple, too many rules' 'I don't spar. too unrealistic'. So what do you do? 'Well I do lots of senerio training, and drills, and hit pads, and 'fight' multiple attackers'. Still valuable stuff no doubt, I'm not putting it down, but far more realistic and a substitute for sparring? And grappling? And full MMA sparring? Really?
     
  7. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    I'm not talking about a "combat sports athlete" - I have already said "they are fit and tough enough enough that they could probably make anything work in a self defence situation." I'm talking about someone who is NEW and wants some basic self defence capabilities, for such a person, sports based arts are not the best solution.
     
  8. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    That's not what I'm saying either... Personally I enjoy grappling and sparring and yes they do teach useful skills - but again they are not 'self defence' skills they are fighting skills which overlap but can often be different...
     
  9. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    No the mindset is COMPLETELY different - when you train in a martial arts situation you are a willing participant when you are the victim in a situation that requires self defence skills you are not willing. This puts that person in a different place where they need additional skills.

    Think about MMA this oft postulated best way of training - is 'MMA' a single entity? No of course not, there are many many schools teaching different mixes of MMA - thus surely we are back to the 'no best art' argument and if so then surely it's about finding the specific art for a specific person who has specific requirements.
     
  10. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I disagree with robertmaps posts to such a degree that I shall refrain from posting my arguments until a time when I haven't drunk grape juice
     
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    IMHO, good points from all of you on mindset. I know there are also people with a "self-defense mindset" that have NEVER trained in martial arts. I think we might be looking at this backwards.

    Training to gain a "self-defense mindset" can be done in many ways. I see the danger of any training as training out the "self-defense mindset". In other words, you take a person with or without a good mindset and you train it out of them so they end up with a mindset that is not good for self-defense.

    I think this kind of training should be rare (limited to special cases) but unfortunately, I think it is quite common. I sometimes call it, "training the common sense out of someone."
     
  12. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    Sorry, I wasn't all that clear. By 'combat sport athlete' I meant someone who has done combat sports for awhile, like the people who make up 80% of combat sports classes, not elite UFC fighters.


    For a large percentage of people who are new and have never done anything before a sports based art is great for learning some basic self defence capabilities. You may not believe it but it is still the truth. I know some of them. :)
     
  13. LCC

    LCC Valued Member

    MMA is a full contact format that allows for all ranges and most techniques used in combat. There is currently no wide-spread professional combat sports system closer to real SD. Then there's the fact that BJJ has now been incorporated into a number of military and civilian combatives courses. Oh and let's not forget all the people who actually train BJJ outside of MMA.

    The myth that anyone can effectively defend themselves is just that, a myth. The whole 100lb weakling taking out the 220 lb bully by using some "super" technique, is a marketing ploy. If a 100lb guy is taking out someone over twice their weight you can bet that 100lb guy has excellent physical capabilities. Cold hard fact is if your physical capabilities don't allow you to effectively apply and resist the physical forces needed to win a physical confrontation, than you will lose. Alright had a chat with someone RL about disability and SD. So decided I should further qualify exactly what I'm saying. I do believe everyone has the right to a SD curriulum regardless of physical capabilities. However I do not believe that there exists a SD syllabus which allows everybody, regardless of physical capabilities, to engage in the same sort of defense and with the same levels of success. Also I believe certain phyiscal limitations greatly limit one's ability to physically engage in combat. There is a difference between being an 80 year old who engages in regular exercise and an 80 year old who is perpetually bed ridden. The chance of the latter making any martial arts work for them is non-existant. On a closing note, I despise schools that market the ability to wholely equalise a field of combat regardless of one's physical capabilities. These schools prey on fear and gullibility, indoctrinating their students with a false sense of security.

    Actually a lot of UFCs have been won by knock out (in which I'm including ground and pound). And I know of mates who have used submissions in street fights. Then there's the fact that BJJ isn't only about submiting your opponant but also how to escape being held or submitted yourself. Even if you have no desire to submit the enemy, you better know what to do in case they decide to try and submit you. Or in the case of rape, try to control and pin you.

    Don't wait, some of the best posts are made after drinking grape juice... or alcohol... one of the two. :D

    The truth is regardless of the end point, any system that teaches it's beginners how to attack and avoid being damaged is going to assist in SD. Contact sports systems tend to be more realistic in this than most styles simply by dint of the fact that the attacks have to be properly defended against otherwise an obvious consequence ensues.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2011
  14. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    TBH I'm surprised we're still having this discussion. An MMA fight trains so hard not only in a variety of ranges but pushes their fitness and strength training like no other art. They've taken the principles of a boxing gym and then added to it. Cardio, strength training and conditioning are like no other art I've seen. It goes beyond a hobby and becomes a way of life. They are all athletes
    Now the practical and self defence implications are just massive. Now I do think it helps that MMA attracts a certain type of person in the first place, these people want to fight. The wannabes just don't last in the way they can in other arts.

    So in conclussion you have a person that's not afraid of a scuffle, training really hard in techniques that are tried and tested again and again, together with conditioning, strength training & regular sparring. Put someone like this against a regular guy or even another martial artist and they're just going to chew right through them. Sorry but it's the way it is :)
     
  15. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    LOVE IT :) - Will await a non grape juice fuelled response with baited breath :)
     
  16. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I've mellowed over the years and grown tired of the age old argument. As long as everyone is happy in there training then that's far more important than anything else.
     
  17. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    I do believe it - I'm not suggesting for one minute that any form (well almost any) of martial arts is not WAY better than no training and obviously styles that include a variety of different skills/ranges/etc and contact (which includes MMA) are better than say 1970's kung fu classes where we never actually touched anyone :) However I still suggest that for basic self-defence skills for a beginner, a class that focuses on said skills is better than a generic sports based martial arts class.
     
  18. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    AGREED and that includes people with no training, some training, lots of training and 'professionals' - Nobody is Superman!!! There are no guarantees in self defence which is why in recent years more and more instructors also take time to teach avoidance, de-escalation and escape skills.

    SEMI-AGREE Would modify what you said to be excellent physical and/or technical capabilities.


    TOTALLY AGREE
     
  19. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    That is debatable. I've seen several JJJ students over the years walk into a competitive gym whether it be kickboxing, Thai or MMA and they're more often then not useless. They've never seen a proper punch, don't have a clue about range and the speed of attack, even from a simple jab just defeats them.
    I think it's better to start in sport, learn what you're capable of in a competitive environment and then move over to a self defence based structure if you then feel the need and want that route.
     
  20. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    Interesting - we may have had some common experiences or influences - one of the first things I teach in my Karate Jutsu syllabus is Jab Cross - why? Because it's relatively easy to pick up and darned effective. For ladies and young adults (I rarely teach children) the same technique but done with palm-heel works fine.

    Fair enough - different strokes for different folks :) I can't argue with that :)
     

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