Which is better for effective self defense?

"MMA" (presuming that when we say "MMA" we mean a combination of Muay Thai, BJJ, and maybe judo) is not a "complete" martial art for self defense. However, these reasons are NOT the major considerations we should be taking into account when noting the differences in "Self defense situations" and "MMA".

These are, in my opinion, much more important:

"MMA" does not train for:
Multiple attackers: Something which occurs in almost all self-defense situations;
Weapons (both wielding and disarming);
Defusing situations (Not always possible "in the street", but when it is, it is almost always preferable);
Terrain (Training on a flat mat does not teach one how to use terrain to one's advantage - not as vital as other items on this list, though)

This being said, few martial arts train all of these things anyway. Which is a damn shame.

Still, what MMA does teach is some of the best, pure, unarmed fighting. I'd definately recommend it as an art for anyone serious about self defense. If they want to take up some other stuff as well (whether at the same time or at a later date), they probably should.

 

Any prearranged fight and a street fight are different in some regards, but the two are really not that far from different. Being someone who has a background primarily in "combat sports", I manage to use what I've learned and trained quite well on a day to day basis as an LEO with some slight modification.

Fighting is fighting, and training effectively to fight in a ring will definitely transfer over to a real fight to some degree. Just because a boxer is no longer inside of a ring doesn't mean he somehow magically loses his ability to punch hard and fast, run circles around his opponent, and defend himself against blows.

 

of course combat sports help in the real world, i mean boxing just trains punches and every now and then i see an article about an ex boxer even of advanced age standing up for themselves and even stopping assault and robbery. this one jumps to mind

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-63443.html

nothing is gonna make you invicible, but practice moving, dodging, hitting hard, kicking, picking people up and dumping them down when they dont wanna be is gonna help to some degree.

 

As for multiple attackers, I don't care what you are trained in, the chances of beating 3 or 4 street fighters in a fight is very slim and you should probably try to escape and run.

You do have a good point with the weapons thing, there are some training styles that help in this, like Krav Maga. Weapons defense would be a nice supplement for a MMA fighter. Unfortunately for me, I am no where near a school that teaches this. I do know some basics on how to fight with a knife, sticks (kali) or a staff.

Defusing and situation and terrain is more psychological I think, and if you make sure to be aware of your surroundings on a day to day basis, you should be able to to it in a fight too.

 

The way I always saw it was this: boxing doesn't teach you everything for self defence, but at least what it teaches you will actually work. Same goes for the other combat sports. I'd rather train in a limited art that does what it says on the tin than a (supposedly) all-encompassing art that's just theoretical.

 

i havent really seen much good Wing Chun outside of Asia. would be alot of fishing around for a good quality school.

but it comes down to what you think works out best for your martial interests and body type in addition to school location and pricing.

do trial lessons if you can of both schools and see how that works out for you in making your decisions.

 

wow. Some people continue to try and make everything seem complicated...

Mate, keep doing your bjj and do Muay Thai. Seems like a good gym and they also do bjj and wrestling which seems to indicate the serious practical nature of the gym.

Its not that hard. bjj and Muay Thai are PROVEN physical combat systems that work against people who are fighting back. Simple.

 

No. Very similiar actually because the things you mentioned don't actually make you a better or worse fighter. None of those things except #1 had anything to do with your performance in a fight. You could have also added the fact that a real fight doesn't play your favorite music just before entering the fight.

Take it from a guy who has been in 4 or so real life street fights.

The huge misconception is that everyone in a street fight is out to kill you. 10 out of 10 times this is not true at all. And not a single fight I have been in has someone tried to go for the eyes or bite, and a couple groin kicks where unsuccessfull. Why? Because those areas are hard to hit when your bobing and weaving so the whole, UFC is for sport, is really just a cop out. My street fights have been very UFC like. I mean who says a downward elbow to your back or a kick while down is going to take you out in real life? And if someone did get me in the eye I would keep fighting so the whole "my art is for self defense only" as if those exclusive moves are fight enders is a joke. Plus consider the fact that the other guy can also use these tactics which put you on an even playing field. It's just another excuse to justify why an artists style is never in the UFC or had their asses handed to them in the ring.

My Wing Chung co worker who is working on his Level 2 to be an instructor swears by WC and we have been arguing about it's effectiveness for 6 months. This is coming from a guy who not only has never been in a fight or sparring session, but has never even been sucker punched or bitch slapped. Who would want to take that persons advice? Well this thought process is a large portion of the community who uses those same arguments and is the nonsense that comes from martial artists who envision themselves fighting the way they do their forms and static drills like a hollywood action video. Unfortunately, street fighting is sloppy and looks nothing like how you train.

Basically, from my real life experience I can say that their is only a few ways your going to win a fight.
1) You run faster than the other guy (Best style for self defense=treadmill)
2) You knock the guy out (boxing muay thai)
3) You choke/lock the guy (jj)
4) You out gas the person. (conditioning)

Unfortunately, Wing Chung holds none of these principals.

You can't knock a guy out in WC because none of it's punches are chambered. That would be considered telegraphed. The punches are short which makes it very hard to produce knockout power for non heavy weights.

Wing chung also doesn't really do locks or chokes.

Wing chung doesn't emphasize on conditioning like BJJ and some others do. So don't expect to outrun or out gas the other guy(s)

 

OK I understand your POV.

Don't they - SHAME!!!!

OK - this got me thinking... and it may be a misconception that I have - based on my experience - or...

Anyway, I haven't been in 'street-fights' to me a street fight is the sort of thing you can see on YouTube, two or more people (often men) trying to beat the snot out of each other.

That's not what I train for, or teach people to deal with...

The scenario that I (generally) train for / teach for is the situation where someone either attacks you or starts with some form of pre-fight harassment or verbal assault. You defend yourself when necessary, the engagement is not a long drawn out affair and then you go home (calling the authorities when appropriate).

The trick is I suggest to make sure that you will never ever be in a fair fight - your level of fitness or strength or training should be such that you will have an advantage. Add to that strategic considerations and you have the makings of a quick resolution.

Examples:
1) Be nice to people, be friendly and polite - many situations never arrise.
2) Don't get into an argument, be assertive not aggressive - many potential situations get resolved without combat.
3) Don't threaten physical violence, appear as if physical violence is the last thing that you could ever do.
4) Adopt a kamae that protects you appropriately without looking aggressive - e.g. a 'fence'.

1 - AGREE
2 - FINE
3 - Generally requires too much training to be reliable in a self-defence situation, though there are exceptions where it will work brilliantly.
4 - Don't agree from a self-defence POV.

I've only ever done a little bit of Wing Chun training (one lesson a week for six months) so I am NOT an expert - however I have met some people who could hit hard enough to knock someone out.

Agreed - although the Sifu I trained with did...

Don't know - the class I trained at did a lot of conditioning but that's just one instructor... Others will vary.

 

Why would being in better shape than your assailant be a bad thing?

 

Then I must mention that I have out gased people in three different fights. See I don't have knockout power so that was my only option for my limited skills. I had three guys back off to take a breath because I kept coming. I can't emphasize the importance of conditioning enough.

Well talk is cheap. Unless they were hitting a sensored dummy and you showed a jpeg of the results that were enough to statistically knock someone out then I would believe you. But from what I find a lot from tough guy beef cakes who never been in a fight incorrectly assume they have knockout power. I have been hit straight on by a 170 brown belt in the chest 6 times in a tough match and have been hit in the head repeatedly in a street fight by a 150lber using long haymakers and I never even felt light headed. The knockouts you see on UFC are from heavier dudes who been practicing fighting or hitting a bag since they were children. Not many average folks or crack heads or street thugs can do that.

True I just mentioned this because it was a comlaint from my WC coworker who's working to be an instructor.

 

It would be a brilliant thing - but it's not something to bank on. You have to be able to win against someone bigger, stronger, faster... That's why it takes skill and training ...

 

WHAT !!!!!

suppose that you are 12 years old and a 15 year old kid attacks you; suppose your are six foot four and someone who is five foot tall attacks you; suppose you are five foot tall and someone who is six foot four attacks you; suppose you are five foot tall and someone who is six foot four - but with a 'glass jaw' attacks you...

There is NO SUCH THING as 'knockout power' or 'statistics' - is there an internationally recognised 'standard mugger' ??? - and that's before you even get into the subject of light force knockouts... What there are, are techniques that in any given situation may or may not work - the whole point of training in martial ARTS is to give you the cognitive and physiological awareness to select the right technique at the right time.

My WC instructor was CONSIDERABLY heavier than me (probably over 1.5 times my body mass) and when he hit me - I did the whole Roger Rabbit seeing birdies thing!!!! - Does that mean he could knock out Mike Tyson - Who knows...

I agree that a knock-out is a valid way to finish a fight however it is only one of many and should be the result of good technique rather than something you go hunting for.

I am old enough to remember dinosaurs... NO NO NO - I am old enough to remember watching wrestling on TV when they said something like the winner will be the first to get three falls a submission or a knockout... Them was the rules... In a self-defence situation the ONLY rule is that you survive.

 

One of the main things that often works in my favor is whenever I am tussling with someone in my job, I know that I am usually in much better shape than most of them and know how hard I can fight for how long. Even in my longest fight (almost four minutes by myself before backup arrived), my opponent gassed not even two minutes in and the rest of the time was me just keeping him on the ground and preventing him from trying to get away. I have seen many guys with no real skill who fight well just because of attitude and their physical conditioning, two things that are absolutely necessary for your own protection.

 

Thanks Kuma I don't know why 90% of MAers don't want to believe this. My WC friend is the same way.

And if size didn't matter they wouldn't have weight classes in professional fighting.

I have stories like Kuma's. Guy stole my car but crashed coming out of the parking lot. He ran and I chased him. Caught up a 1/4 mile down the road. I walked him back at knife point without any resistance from him because he know I could chase him down. I turned him into the police back at my house and saw him in court.

If your faster and in better shape than the next guy, that can make up for the lack of skill. The other way around would have never been possible in this and most other situations as Kumas especially with resisting opponents.

 

Sorry, just noticed this:

Perhaps, in theory. But then, how would Wing Chun training prepare you for the fear of being maimed or killed? At least MMA and BJJ guys do SOME kind of fighting, surely that's a lot closer to experiencing that kind of fear than chi sau is?

 

i would add to this the following:

Sparring prepares you better for self defence than no sparring
full contact sparring prepares you better for the street than just normal sparring
and full contact competition (where the opponent is really looking to finish or hurt you) prepares you better than just sparing in the gym

This is why sports that have a full contact competition format really help prepare you for the street, anyone that has competed in boxing, thai, MMA, or even grappling in a competition knows the fear that this brings, your opponent is no longer a sparring partner you know who looks out for your safety, as happens in club sparring but its an unkown opponent looking to win and does what ever he can within the rules to do this (so you will get knocked out, you will get your arm brocken etc unless you protect yourself and tap in time)

This confidence gained in this enviroment is a real asset on the street

 

Not to mention it quickly introduces you to the fact that many martial artists have some ridiculous ideas about the kind of injuries you can get fighting. I have had my nose broken before and kept fighting and magically my "nose bone" wasn't driven up into my brain killing me. I've had my xyphoid process dislocated, which some believe is an "instant killing shot" but yet somehow I mysteriously survived. And learning how to fight when injured is really invaluable, as it's most likely going to happen and if you aren't used to it, you will have a much higher chance of just curling up into a ball and getting the tango stomped on your brain stem.

 

The other thing is that even in club sparring you find out how much adrenaline can reduce the amount of pain you and your opponent feel. There has been many a time that I wake up the next morning after class and realize how bad my elbow or shoulder hurts and I didn't even feel it in class.

BTW, this is why I prefer chokes. No oxygen to brain puts people to sleep no matter what the circumstances. :evil:

 

That hits it on the head precisely. How many gyms teach BJJ and Wing Chun (I knew of one but he stopped the BJJ for whatever reason) VS how many gyms teach BJJ and MT (a lot). If they're taught in the same gym than they're going to be better blended.