Which internal martial art produces the most powerful explosive force and why?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by cpthindsight, Apr 21, 2015.

  1. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    and a lot of it is also related to what your posture is and how you modify it. it doesn't really "start", unless you start sprawled on the floor; you are already doing something with most of your body, and you change it to generate a certain movement pattern.
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    It is difficult for me to explain. For simplicity let's talk about two kinds of collisions: One that transfers all the energy into the target (an inelastic collision) and one that bounces the energy back in the opposite direction (an elastic collision). It would make sense that we would want our punch to be like an inelastic collision with the target. We do not want our punches to bounce back (elastic collision), that is no good for power striking.

    Now how do you create an inelastic collision with a punch? We do this through relaxation.

    So when I meant that you are decelerating naturally, I meant you are relaxed and letting the strike find its target (like an arrow in flight) rather than tense trying to push the strike harder through a target like a steel bar.

    Now if the above makes any sense to you... the following might not at all. I just said that inelastic collision transfers the most energy into the target, but the total energy depends on mass. So when you hit, we want the structure and alignment to be firm but relaxed so that the mass of the entire body is behind the strike, not just the mass of the arm and fist.

    So my dribbling a basketball analogy was about the ground. You want to be solid like the ground and you want what you hit (like the solar plexus) to be like the basketball striking the ground and accelerating away inside the body of the opponent.
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2015
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Man I'm having trouble explaining this in words.

    I should have described what I call structure first. Structure is strength without rigidness. An example is rigidness is that I make a strong fist, but I squeeze so hard that my whole body becomes rigid. An example of structure is I have a strong fist and forearm but the rest of my body can remain relaxed.

    So when I mean to relax, it means to relax but maintain strong structure. So the last is the relax the hands and forearms... but this only can happen if you retain strong structure. If you are not conditioned to have strong structure then you will probably hurt yourself hitting something with a power punch.

    Ummm, I wrote this backwards.

    Looking at hard style, it seems like the relaxed state is totally relaxed and any state of creating structure involves tension. So tension is created in the waist to create structure, then the hips and shoulders, then the knees and elbow, then the foot and hand.

    Eventually, hard style develops strong structure while remaining relaxed... but I think soft style gets a head start on this because they study it from day one. Of course building strong structure while remaining relaxed can take a very long time so hard style can be more practical at first.
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    That might be nitpicking too much even for me :p

    Everything starts with the spirit, then mind, then body.

    So I could say, "fill yourself with Ki" is what starts it all :jawdrop:
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Not just movement, but the way our bodies are structured too, ie. where and why we have strength and weakness.
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio


    Attached Files:

  7. HachiKuma

    HachiKuma Valued Member

    There won't be any acceleration after the bullet leaves the barrel, as the seal (between the bullet and barrel) will be broken and the gasses will disipate in to free air.

    That's about the limit of my contribution here!
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    My apologies, I didn't realized how controversial the topic was going to end up.


    "The propellant gases continue to exert force on the bullet and firearm for a short while after the bullet leaves the barrel. One of the essential elements of accurizing a firearm is to make sure that this force does not disrupt the bullet from its path."
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yeah, I admit I completely failed to express in words what I am trying to say. I think problem is I'm trying to describe a feeling but not be vague like "relaxation is the key" but actually explain structure. :mad:

    Here's what I'm trying to show:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTxextUbgls"]W Tool Battering Ram Application: Training Instruction - YouTube[/ame]

    Here is what I actually ended up doing:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWurA3V5BRw"]Police fails to batter down door, then asks to be let in by suspect - YouTube[/ame]

  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    From where I'm sitting, the problem comes from trying to explain structure in terms of feeling.

    That might work if we were face-to-face with some focus mitts, but in purely written text it hasn't translated well for me.
  11. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    In terms of impact, velocity and mass are what matters, not the acceleration of the tool doing the hitting. If a train is going 50 mph and throws on the breaks, and hits something at 25mph, it is decelerating at the point of impact, but it still has velocity. Acceleration is relevant for 2 reasons: 1) It's how you cram as much velocity as possible into the interval you have, and 2) the transfer of power into the object you're hitting accelerates that object, which is how you cause damage (particularly since compressive strength tends to be higher than tensile strength, and accelerating part of an object faster than the rest can keep up tends to change the properties of the impact). When you're looking at the damage an object is going to do, whether it is accelerating or decelerating is irrelevant, it's the velocity at the point of impact that matters.

    In the hips vs toes part of this discussion- the lateral movement happens because of the transfer of power to the ground through the feet, but the primary mechanisms for power generation for virtually all human movement begin in the hips. If you look at most Oly lifting, sprinting, jumping, etc., you'll see hip extension before there is a force transfer into the ground. This is easily illustrated by trying to jump by firing your calves without hip extension, and then trying to jump with hip extension without foot extension. When you move by pushing against the ground, it is hip and knee extension that powers that movement.
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Sure, but when talking about the structure of the body, it produces a lot of resistance just by the way it is constructed. Which gives greater importance to continuously providing acceleration.
  13. cpthindsight

    cpthindsight Banned Banned

    you sound smart can you answer my question?
  14. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    Nope. I don't believe it's a question with a meaningful answer.
  15. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    I'm not sure I agree with that. Joints are almost frictionless, so we don't actually lose that much during a properly performed movement. The timing on your acceleration is important to hit peak velocity at the moment of impact (if your goal is maximum transfer of kinetic energy), but I think that a lot of attempts to continue "adding" to a technique wind up accidentally slowing it down. Once you've cracked a whip, you let the structure of the whip do the rest of the work. And a pitcher doesn't try to push the ball after it's been released.

    Of course, it always depends on what you're trying to do with your movement, but I think a lot of martial arts folks misunderstood F=MA, and became obsessed with a technique that is accelerating all the way through. Maximal (appropriate) velocity is what matters, however you accomplish that.
  16. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    That said, if it's done properly, working to maximize your acceleration in the ending segments of the technique may be useful for reaching that maximal velocity, as well as getting your body to fire in the appropriate sequence. What it does is more important than why.
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Muscles and sinew give a lot of resistance though.

    I completely agree about peak velocity, that was what I was trying to get at. Not that you should necessarily accelerate through the target (though that can be viable), but for maximum power you accelerate up to the target.

    All I was trying to get at was that the baseball or the bullet have most energy at the moment of release. Letting them coast for a while cannot increase energy transfer on impact, and can only reduce it (although, with bullets it gets more complicated in terms of damage to a person, but is true when considering penetrating power). There is also a lot more resistance in the structure of the striker's body than a baseball or bullet will be subject to.

    I also agree that F=MA doesn't tell us too much about something as complex as striking another person, or even a heavy bag.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2015
  18. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The coasting is about not getting jammed. I think using the term "acceleration" was more about a symptom than actually what is happening. Instead of using acceleration as the goal, let's take the approach of getting your body mass behind the strike for power. When you are still trying to get your body mass behind a strike and you hit something, this is getting jammed.

    Once you get your full body mass behind a strike, you basically move along the power line until you hit something. You have only a few inches that you can move after you get your full body mass behind the strike before you start to really lose power. However, you can extend this distance by hopping or jumping.

    Here is what I mean by getting your body behind the strike before you hit (amazing this guy is around 73 years old when this was filmed):

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSnzOpR-17c"]Master K KO's the Bag - Master K Muay Thai - YouTube[/ame]

    I know a wavemaster isn't that hard to knock over, but there is no indication that his technique isn't getting his body behind the strike.

    Also, once you transfer energy into the target with your strike, there is a secondary strike that can occur within the follow through. Bruce Lee's one-inch punch and the corkscrew punch are examples of striking using components of a "secondary" strike. The difference is that these are using the secondary strike as part of the primary strike. You can get better results, IME, hitting with power and then making the secondary strike part of the follow through.
  19. jerryd

    jerryd New Member

    I realize this is an old thread - but this might be of interest.


    This is Wu-Chi Tao, a Chinese based internal martial art.

    It is made of 8 mother arts - the internal aspect is explained as a "weightshift" - where the internal weight is separate from the external form.

    The equivalent of having a ball containing ice, vs a ball containing water - one moves as one entity with the weight locked, the other moves with the weight free inside.
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
  20. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Welcome to MAP jerryd.

    Mod note- Please go back and edit your post to explain WHY that link might be of interest. Our policy here is that one needs to explain why one posts a link to add to the conversation.

    Also, that way we know you didn't just come on here to pimp another site, but that you intend to come on here to contribute to MAP.


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