Which art is best of 'da streets'

Precisely. Which begs the question - what happens when BJJ doesn’t prepare you for [insert circumstances here]?

 

Pure technical considerations are the least of my worries when gauging BJJ in SD setting. A choke is a choke is a choke. The conceptual approach to fighting is where it's at.

 

Both personal experience in judo, bjj and mma sparring, both being the 'non sporting' guy, and the guy sparring with the 'sporting guy'. Watching multiple amauter mma hours with independent fighters who 'claim blackbelts' and the lack of any non sporting guys at even mid level mma events.


But hey I might be wrong, maybe magically people can get skills without going through rigourous training, if you know that secret it would be worth a lot of money!

 

So basically you should just go train Gracie Jiujitsu? What you say above is pretty much exactly the argument that Rener and Ryron Gracie makes over and over again in their breakdown videos.

 

See, you're making a sweeping assumption that non sport training is not rigourous.

 

You often hear BJJ instructors telling students to "keep SD int eh back of their head" while training. Most of them don't even think about it before purple. They can't. Mind is too busy focusing on keeping their arms in, how to move hip escape properly, how to unhook that foot, how to deal with with this and that...pure technical considerations. They - myself included - are not in a place where they are good enough to spare brain cells on thinking street while training sport. That comes later if it comes at all. Also as awesome as cross training is, most people don't so they are left with whatever their BJJ school / coach impart them with.

 

Well first off all the point is to be rounded so its not just BJJ, secondly the op wasn't what is optimal for SD, it was what martial art / combat sport is best for SD, (i.e. from the commonly availble training programmes, what is the best fit for SD) these are two different questions.

I'd say out of the commonly available arts, mma in its scope and depth is your best option,

 

I would say JKD but have seen too much patchy quality control to be satisfied with that....


....so JKD with me is now my default recommendation :evil:

 

So anecdotal observations.

Any person sparring/rolling in judo, bjj or mma classes who does not have experience in those specific disciplines is going to struggle in them, regardless of how good they are otherwise. Criticising them for doing so is like criticising a world class TKD competitor for not being able to do ne waza in a Judo class.

You and I know full well that people who 'claim blackbelts' have not necessarily been awarded them. Not only that but they may well have trained in a sport art with low standards rather than a genuine TMA club or SD club.

The lack of non sporting guys at mid level MMA events should not be a surprise. Why would anyone who isn't training specifically in MMA want to be there? Why would anyone with any sense who wanted to compete in an MMA event not tailor their training to that and enrol in a good MMA gym?

I am not arguing against rigorous training. My observation is that to say you won't find it outside sporting disciplines is hyperbole. I also think that to say you will find it in sport orientated disciplines is hyperbole.

 

Is it pretty much or exactly the same? If pretty much then what are the differences? First I'm pretty sure you'll never hear them say that a purely ground-based approached is flawed. Number 2 it's not because they use eyerolling marketing practices (ALL you need is GJJ, online testing etc) that absolutely everything the say or do is wrong. Got to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

I knew that would provoke debate,

In the main no its not, because there's no immediate need for it to be, they haven't got time and or resources for it.

 

????????????????????

 

So in your view, if someone can't strike, clinch or do groundwork, what can they do in a SD situation? Wristlocks and bad language?

 

Pressure in training is surely the deciding factor in the efficiacy of said training

"non sport" pressure - very closely proximate to a "street" conflict

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNwlB6Ia5nw"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNwlB6Ia5nw[/ame]

"sport" pressure - lots of crossover to a "street" conflict

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RpPIx8MFxo"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RpPIx8MFxo[/ame]

"no pressure" - almost guaranteed not to work against anything fiercer than a moth

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c8SAHJ7C6U"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c8SAHJ7C6U[/ame]

 

High level mma training (which was the context) is multiple sessions a day, often with paid specialist coaches and sparring partners.

You don't have the need in SD/non competitive schools.

If you could actually get good, without doing that, you'd have a million dollar secret everyone would want to buy.

 

Hannibal, correct me if I'm wrong, but would you say most / all of the good SD focused people you know, also quite capable to jump in and "spar" under multiple rulesets ?

 

You're switching context, you've gone from widely available to high level, and as jwt said, the bulk of people training at BJJ/MMA/MT schools aren't doing that any more than the bulk of students at a non sport place are.

 

i think that the thing people forget about the lack of pressure is, sure, it makes your defenses weak, but also your offense. just look at the "double leg", and i use quotes on purpose. that was a horrible, horrible attack, which he totally gave up on half-way through. your average wrestling beginner would look better than that.

i did get a nice chuckle over the high-speed face slapping. "you, you tried to double leg takedown, here's some high speed cheek slapping to put you in line."

 

I bet that last guy can’t stop the same exact half-butted takedown when he’s not squaring off and expecting it like taxes in April

 

i think what fusen is getting at, and apologies if i'm putting words in anyone's mouth, is that without the sport/pressure aspect, you can't bolt-on "self defense".

for the most part, i think we're all saying the same thing. there is more to self defense than fighting, but if you have to fight, you need to build up the right attributes for it.