Wheres the shaolin in ussd's shaolin kempo?

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by buda warrior, Aug 28, 2006.

  1. buda warrior

    buda warrior New Member

    Where's the shaolin in ussd's shaolin kempo? I know the head guys train at the temple in china, but they dont teach us any of the shaolin kungfu.
    You have to pay like 5 grand to go.

    We learn japanese pinions and katas(not shaolin forms)And these shaolin defensive maneuvers are really villari kempo combinations.
    So how can these master's claim their art is shaolin?
  2. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Because the word "Shaolin" draws in CMA LARPer students who are willing to pay money to practice watered down wushu forms.

    But seriously though, arguably Willian Chow had introduced Kung Fu to Kempo way back during it's inception in Hawaii (though that is debatable) and more recently (1980's I think) Villari essentially declared himself an expert of 5 animal kung fu without any real credentials, and no one really questioned him. After all only today are martial artists completely ridiculed and called out to back their claims unlike back then when ninjas ran amok and deadly karate masters began opening up shop on every street corner.

    Demasco got back to his "roots" by joining the temple, just as other Kempo schools are getting back to their "roots" by begging Emperado for recognition and a bone.
  3. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    At the August 2003 Shaolin Monk Show in Anaheim CA, Steve Demasco was moved to tears when it was announced that the USSD would have a monument put up in the Shaolin Temple in Honan. (See what 150,000 can get you?). He said that it had been a dream of his since he saw the David Carradine TV show in the 70's to be part of the Shaolin Temple. So let's take a look at what Carradine did in the TV show. First, David Chow correographed the show. He used Judo for 90% of it. Then, Carradine correographed two episodes himself after he got rid of Chow. What he used was a mix of dance and Western Cowboy fighting. Then, Sifu Kam Yuen became the guy and brought in Northern Shaolin Tai Mantis Kung Fu. (This was late in season two, adn for season three also).So there you go. Don't feel too bad about the Japanese Kata, when Kwai Chang Caine was stuck with Judo and Cowboy fighting mixed with modern dance before they got it right.

    Now, Chow DID know plenty of real kung fu guys and brought several of them in as Background masters for the pilot etc. He even brought in kajukenbo black belt John Leoning as Master Te. Kam Yuen was on hand because he'd had a few bit parts and doubled Master Po on the show.

    After the aforementioned Monk Show, the Abbot got up and read (threw an interpreter) this long proclamation telling us how proud he was that we were spreading Shaolin Kung Fu. I looked at the guy next to me and said, "I think we've been had. Who do these people think they're fooling?" The guy next to me said, "Well, I just like being connected to them." Whatever.
  4. RevIV

    RevIV Valued Member

    Demasco got back to his "roots" by joining the temple, just as other Kempo schools are getting back to their "roots" by begging Emperado for recognition and a bone.[/QUOTE]

    I guess the question is,, Is the begging working. Is Sijo giving Kajukenbo ranks to people who do not know Kajukenbo? Or giving high ranks to people who only know a little of the material?
    In Peace
  5. Satori81

    Satori81 Never Forget...

    Just a heads up about visiting the Shaolin Temple...

    It costs something like $400 a month for room, board, and full-time training within the temple. About a year ago a friend of mine traveled there and stayed for a summer. He was amazed at how inexpensive it was. This, of course, doesn't count the cost of the plane ticket.

    Keep that in mind the next time you want to shell out $5000 for a "USSD Shaolin Temple Vacation!".
  6. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    There are no "watered down wushu forms" in Shaolin Kempo.

    They're watered down Japanese karate forms!

    Get it right already, SKK is an easy target, if you are going to take the easy road and bag on it at least get it right. :cool:
  7. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Nothing wrong with Shaolin Kempo Karate by itself. But it's not "Shaolin Chuan Fa" as it says on my USSD certificates. There may be a little Chinese Boxing in there, but its got a lot more Karate than anything else.
  8. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    I do not know exactly, but I do know that Kaju guys on the most part seem to be no-nonsense kinda fighters. There's always the exceptions, but unlike the majority of Kempo Mcdojo's out there, it seems Kaju guys have a pretty good standard of quality control. I'm speaking from a not-so-experienced POV, but it's just judging from what I've heard and seen.
  9. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Does your experience with SKK forms not include animal forms such as Tiger, Crane or Mantis?
  10. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    Actually, it does not. Our version of SKK does not use those. Instead we have Seisan, Sanchin, Suparunpei, a few others... stuff from Tenshi Goju.

    We have some animal combos but that's just more hawaiian kempo "tricks".
  11. Almost A Ghost

    Almost A Ghost Valued Member

    For a relatively small time, USSD had a business/martial arts relationship with Master Tak Wah Eng, this was during the late 90's. IMO it was an attempt to make the system more chinese. Some say it was to evolve the system, I think it was just to make it more marketable. If you want to do Kung fu, find a kung fu school.
  12. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Interesting. I was not aware of that. And by SKK you mean you are/were affiliated with Villari? Does Cerio Kenpo teach animal forms?
  13. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    Just butting in.

    His teacher's teacher went up to green belt (or so) with United Studios of Self Defense. That organization was a Villari offshoot. If I recall correctly, his group teaches some of the Villari forms, but does not teach any from the Nick Cerio curriculum, except Statue of the Crane - which is also a part of the Villari curriculum.

    Professor Cerio did teach forms with animal names, such as Circle of the Tiger, Circle of the Leopard, Circle of the Panther, etc. but all of these forms are based on the forms he learned from GM S. George Pesare. In the newsletter for his organization, he clearly stated the source / inspiration for most of the forms, and never claimed they were anything other than his creation based on the things he had learned.

    However, Professor Cerio did teach a version of Lin Wan Kune (continuous returning fist) that he learned from Gan Fong Chin, which was very similar to that taught by Leo Fong. If you want to see what it looked like, the book and or Video by Leo Fong crops up on eBay now and then.

    Sorry to butt in,

  14. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    So Cerio really did get around when it came to adding to his system eh? And butt in all you like, this is an open discussion, and you obviously have more to bring to the table than we have right now ;)
  15. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    Yeah, that's pretty accurate, our flavor of SKK did originate with USSD but a lot of stuff was stripped out and replaced with stuff from NCK and Tenshi Goju Kai.

    I beleive Cerio took the kata series he learned from Pesare and created the animal forms listed by Matt is that right? We do the Kata series more closely resembling the original versions, from what I have been able to compare (especially Kata 2 LOL too many comparison of that one :eek: ).

    A few of our self-defense combos are basically identical to techniques I've seen in Cerio's "Kenpo Hands" videos.

    Does NCK still use the Pinan kata? We probably overlap with them there too...

  16. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    I'm not sure that much NCK actually made it in, only from the small snippets I've seen so far of what you guys do.

    Yes, sort of. Statue of the Crane already existed, concepts from the others went into Circle of the Tiger, Circle of the Leopard was a reworking of 2 kata, and Circle of the Panther was a reworking of SGM Pesare's 7 Pinion (7 Kata) that became 'Swift Tigers' when reworked again by Villari. One thing that was clear was that at no time did Professor Cerio imply that they were Kung Fu forms or of Chinese origin.

    Haven't added that one to my collection yet. One of these days.

    Yes and No. His One Pinan is essentially the same as yours, without the 'turn and look over your other shoulder' thing I saw in the video. Taikyoku Shodan to the Shotokan folks. His Two Pinan is different, and his Three Pinan is what you would recognize as a variation of your Two Pinan.

    NCK still uses a variation of 3 and 4 pinan, but under the title of the 'Cat' forms 1 and 2. Your overlap is more likely with the way the Villari / USSD folks do them.

  17. RevIV

    RevIV Valued Member

    If you are refering to the original kata's taught by Fred Villari then yes you are doing them to his original ways. But these "original Kata's" are different then the way SGM Pesare taught them to Prof. Cerio. Matt and I have both been to SGM Pesare's institute and learned the original 4 kata's, They are somewhat similiar but not the same as what you or myself do now. Some of the forms did not finish in the same direction they started and were changed because of tournaments. (this is just a minor example)
    In Peace
  18. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    thanks, good info mostly, but honestly you've seen like 2 or 3 of our forms and maybe 5 techniques at most? (if you count the written descriptions) And you haven't seen the kenpo hands series. So you are really just guessing, right :D

    but overall I think we are on the same page.

    I'm curious have you seen our pinan 2 and 3? Our pinan 2 is very similar to p1, footwork is the same but hands are different. Whereas p3 is quite different from 1&2. Does that line up with "His Two Pinan is different, and his Three Pinan is what you would recognize as a variation of your Two Pinan."

    Have you seen our pinan 2 and 3? not sure if those were ever out there... becasue our 2 pinan is basically a variation of our 1 pinan :confused:

    our p3 involves the "chicken wing" block does that help any?

  19. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    Well, yes to some degree I am guessing. Basically I'm basing my guess on the entire video of CNG doing his thing, the video of S. Steiner doing 2 pinan during the Gascon visit, the written descriptions, a general knowledge of NCK due to the fact that the MSDC seniors took private lessons with Professor Cerio and were (and still are) listed on the NCK family tree as certified to teach NCK, a pretty in-depth study of the history of SKK including the backgrounds of the major players of the major organizations, the other footage I've seen of Professor Cerio doing his thing, and a thorough reading and re-reading of Nick Cerio's Kenpo: The Master's Text. But yes, I'm guessing. I like to think of it as at least an educated guess, though.

    Me too.

    Yes. You would not recognize his two pinan, but would immediately recognize his 3 pinan as reminiscent of your two pinan but with knifehand blocks in the beginning.

    Yes and no. I've definitely seen the 2 pinan done by your instructor. I don't remember if 3p is on the infamous 'rank tape' by his instructor, but I'm sure we're thinking of the same thing. His pinans are the USSD ones, not the Cerio ones. If you saw Nick Cerio's 'Cat One' form you'd say hey -that looks like 3 pinan. If in doubt, do a search for 'pinan sandan' or 'heian sandan' and you should find some familiar (but not exact)versions of your 3 pinan done okinawan and shotokan style respectively.

  20. natkungfu

    natkungfu Valued Member

    From my understanding Grand Master Tak Wah Eng cut all tie's with ussd and Steve Damasco. www.takwahfederation.com
    If you talk to him he will tell you why.

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