Where's the respect?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Kew-Do, Mar 17, 2007.

  1. Kew-Do

    Kew-Do Valued Member

    When I started to learn Martial Arts and choose the path of an "Artist", I met many instructors and students from other schools. Although there were differences in techniques, applications, methodologies,..........there was still respect for others and the elders that came before me .

    Correct me if I'm wrong, it is my observation over the past 20 years that respect for others, the path of peace and not choosing the path of violence has fallen to the way side. It appears that the "Fighting Side" of Martial Arts has taken precedence and has become the focal point of the Arts.

    I know the fighting side is very important, but isn't the way of the peaceful warrior the long term goal of the practitioner?

    Kew-Do
     
  2. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    I agree here,
    I too originally got into the MAs because of the respect, honor and discipline that was so interwoven with them. However, you are right it seems that these are falling by the wayside and giving way to fighting and brawling.
    Maybe it is because of society's seeming increased need for violence?
    Maybe respect, honor and discipline are no longer taught even at the basic level?
    Who knows, but you are not the only one to notice this change Kew
     
  3. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

    I think a lot of this loss of respect is coming from the sport element and the MMA, UFC style of fighters. The respect is still present in most of the traditional arts. Japanese arts in particular still have a very hightened degree of respect and tradition. One other aspect I see is the "McDojo" element, you have people who have trained for 5 or 6 years opening schools and not even having a full understanding of there own history. We recently had a young black belt transfer in to our school from a TKD school and the boy could not even tell me who founded TKD, what TKD meant, or where and when it was founded. If you are not being taught the history of the art then how do you expect to learn the customs, respects, and traditions of the arts.
     
  4. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Answer: Combination of the information age, jaded ex-BS martial artists, and ex-WWE fans turned MMA wannabes.

    In short respect for someone because they do MA, or teach MA has gone out the window because the number of quality schools compared to BS schools in the US has shrunk to an astounding size. When someone meets me, and says they do martial arts, I can be almost certain through sheer statistics in my own experience that they can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. All the schools around here, Isshinryu, Shotokan, Ken/mpo, Ninjutsu, Wing Chun, Jujutsu etc... all do different things, all get the same result; Ineptitude at accomplishing anything remotely combative.

    The "martial arts is about having the confidence in yourself to not fight" mantra, has become cliche'd amongst substandard martial arts schools, who choose to preach morality over teaching one what they signed up for (self defense). Sure it may have once been a proud mantra, touted by fighters of martial arts schools who truly were beyond "proving themselves," but those were fighters who did prove themselves in training, and had no need to outside of class.

    As far as the sport MMA-craze we are currently in, there are plenty of teens and 20-somethings that normally would be psyched about the latest WWE event and backyard wrestling, but are now holding backyard MMA bouts. But to be honest I find them few and far between, with the MMA fanbase I encounter being mostly talented yet modest martial artists. I guess I'm not spending enough time down at the local sports bar during events.

    Anyway, martial arts these days is just getting back to it's roots. We went through the Bruce lovin in the 70's, Ninja BS artist stage of the 80's, the Master Miyagi "fighting isn't about fighting" stage of the 90's, the Wire-Fu of the late 90's and early 2000's, and now finally fighting has taken center stage again for martial arts, and I for one couldn't be happier.
     
  5. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I think there is still respect between practitioners of different arts - I just think it isn't always evident on the internet. I would be willing to bet that most of the people here would be polite and respectful (or at least only rude in a jocular manner) if you met them face to face. Indeed the relatively small sample of MAPers that I've met face to face have been cool people.

    Internet message boards like this encourage "condensed" discussion which often leaves out the polite elements of everyday conversation - this can give a false impression of the nature of people in martial arts as a whole.
     
  6. Stevebjj

    Stevebjj Grappling Dummy

    I personally believe that the ideas of learning self defence so you can be a noble samurai is a lot of what's wrong with martial arts. I've found that in the MMA community there is tremendous respect for each other, and have also found those who study the arts commonly associated with MMA (Muay Thai, BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, Sambo, etc) to be among the nicest, gentlest guys ever outside of competition.

    A thread like this, to me at least, is disingenuous in that it presupposes this ideal of non-violent mutual respect as fundamental aspect of martial arts. It's on this that the entire argument regarding the loss of this respect is based. I would say that it was artificial to begin with, outside of the respect that is earned through martial skill. Where this martial skill is lacking or is suspect, it would follow that the respect would be missing as well.

    I would also add that people should have a sense of respect outside of martial arts. If you need martial arts to "teach" or "foster" respect for others and a path of non-violence, there are better ways to go about this than learning how to inflict pain.
     
  7. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    To me martial arts are about fighting. There are non-physical by-products that you can gain from training but that is their primary purpose, no matter how much your instructor preaches morals at you, and I see no reason why I should seek moral guidance from a martial arts instructor than I should from a guitar teacher or anyone else. I'm a 21 year old man and I see it as a contractual relationship of paying someone to teach me how to fight, not to treat me like a child and lecture me in how to be respectful.

    Respect does, contrary to popular belief, very much exist in the "sport element" of martial arts, the main difference being that it's earned through achievement rather than because of the belt rank that you didn't have to fight for. This whole thing about sports martial artists lacking respect for others is just a cliche based on films like the karate kid.

    What I've noticed recently is a growing trend towards cynicism or at least criticism which many people seem to confuse with a lack of respect. The fact is I don't have to respect something if I honestly think it's a load of crap, even if it comes from the mouth of a Grand Master of some TMA organisation. People don't buy into the mystique like they used to and they're more willing to say when they disagree with a training methodology rather than just constantly assume the instructor is right.

    Respect is something which should be earned and genuinely felt, not just given lip service while you recite your instructor's mantra; however this is what often happens with martial arts these days. Not only is it illogical but it bites the artists in question in the rear eventually when they fail to discard inferior techniques and methodologies because they "respect" the guy who founded the art.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2007
  8. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member

    The "art" in martial art does not mean anything other than skill.

    All the nonsense about morality and honour has nothing to do with MA. It merely means "Fighting Skill".

    I.e smashing someone in the head with a glass ashtray is just as much martial "art" as anything.
     
  9. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    This is an excellent point. I'm a lot more, well, "aggressive" for want of a better word in debates on here than I am in real life discussions. In real life I don't get involved in arguments that I think are just going to kill the social atmosphere and I'm more than willing to agree to disagree on debates like sport vs street which can go on forever. On the internet however I prefer to just stick to the point and discuss the issue since I don't know any of you personally; my philosophy is that if you don't like what I'm saying on MAP no-one is forcing you to read it. I don't automatically disrespect someone just because I disagree on an issue like the best way to train.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2007
  10. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    I wouldn't say it's the fighters themselves but a certain sub-section of fans fueled by marketing hyperbole that is perpetuated by a few dozen notable personalities.
     
  11. Stevebjj

    Stevebjj Grappling Dummy

    Great point, bcullen. The distinction between practitioners of the styles and their fanboys who don't train.
     
  12. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    ^^^ I think we can end the debate now ;)

    The thing about the no-physical by-products is that they are a result of a lot of physical discipline and putting yourself on the line in fighting/competion, and 'trancending your conciousness your the adrenal experience'.

    It cannot be done by kata or meditation, but that's a different topic ;)
     
  13. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    You sir have hit the proverbial nail on the head.
     
  14. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    You just drove that proverbial nail through the floor board. Well done.
     
  15. Sever

    Sever Valued Member

    Go hug a tree, hippie ;)

    I did have a giant post set to go here, but a damned power cut made me lose it. Due to my complete lack of respect for the public, I'm off to whoop on someone from the power company!
    There are a lot of factors at play in this supposed paradigm shift, but when it comes down to it, I feel that all the "peaceful warrior" stuff tends to be ingrained simply because the clubs that do so simply aren't sure if what they do works. They've never tested themselves, have no desire to, but don't want their students getting tuned up so they dump a load of pseudo-philosophical bumph in their laps and expect them to not question it. Sadly, many don't and end up wasting years training in crap clubs rather than being seen as "disrespectful" because they dared to question Sensei and realise that they're there to learn to fight, not to become some mini-monk. Things like internet discussion boards and the current MMA boom have brought this aspect to the fore and now there's a lot more questioning of these things going on, though the way of these things is that sometimes they can get a bit heated and seem like there's no real respect there
    Don't get me wrong; I respect my instructors, I respect my training partners and I conduct myself respectfully outside of training, but it's nothing to do with being on the righteous path of the gentle warrior, it's about me not being a tosser. I don't need to pay an instructor to tell me to respect other people, my parents did that quite enough (and once or twice, I may have even listened)
    By the same token, internet forums are always going to be one of the worst methods for gauging this kind of thing. Rightly or wrongly, there are a lot of people that - gasp - tell fibs on the internet. Some of them even post here. You can't really grasp who's a respectful individual and who isn't through this method of communication. You can grasp who's a git on the internet through the internet, but not how they conduct themselves offline. I'll stop on that particular aspect right now because otherwise I'll end up writing a book on it (the internet forum as a communication medium is one of my big "nerd" subjects that I can bore people to death with :))
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2007
  16. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

    Good point.
     
  17. Johnnycache

    Johnnycache New Member

    I find the atmosphere in my MMA club quite respectful, actually.

    There's a strong respect there for tradition, for better fighters, for other clubs.

    I think the stereotype of the "meathead MMA guy" comes often from the mouths of people who are intensely threatened by that meathead's competence on the mat, and some of the cries of "but that's not in keeping with tradition" or "they seem so boisterous and impolite" really do come from people scrabbling to keep their relevance.

    MMA fighters don't start lots of brawls outside of class - we're too sore, and we don't want to get our liscenses pulled, tyson-style. :Angel:
     
  18. NamSagoon

    NamSagoon Banned Banned

    To be honest most of the disrespect I see is from the TMA people who feel threaten by the rise of MMA. Most MMA people I know started in other martial arts and typically have respect for them (though they also recognize the large amount of BS there as well). Also, for those of us sport fighters who don't have respect for the TMA crowd, it is because we feel you need to earn it. Step into the ring and prove you have what it takes to be a fighter. Sporting a mullet and shouting 'Kiaaa!' doesn't make you a force to be feared. Neither does having a black belt in most cases. I don't respect people who are all talk. There are plently of good traditional martial art schools out there, but as Kempo pointed out, the liklihood that someone from a typical TMA school sucks is pretty high. If anything they should be thanking the sport fight crowd for forcing them to reevaluate what works and what does not. Even Bruce Lee you believed needed to fight full contact to know if a technique was usable. This idea is nothing new. It just took alot of people who got lazy in the 80s by suprise. Suddenly they had to prove their skills.
     
  19. TigerDude

    TigerDude Valued Member

    The "respect" is supposed to be for someone who is dedicated to a life of study of an art. "Respect" gained because you're in the ring is in my opinion just a big ego-fest.
     
  20. Sever

    Sever Valued Member

    It's not really that much different
    People dedicate their lives to their arts on both sides of the coin and in all honesty, I'm far more likely to respect someone that's shown me they're worthy of my respect by getting in the ring or cage and showing me what they've got than someone I'm supposed to respect because "they've been doing it for a long time." You can level the "ego-fest" accusation at an awful lot of teachers in clubs that don't compete just as you can say that competition is an "ego-fest"
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2007

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